Comments on: Looking Gosnell in the Eye https://the-orbit.net/zinniajones/2013/04/looking-gosnell-in-the-eye/ Secular Trans Feminism Thu, 16 May 2013 08:31:44 +0000 hourly 1 https://wordpress.org/?v=6.1.6 By: more https://the-orbit.net/zinniajones/2013/04/looking-gosnell-in-the-eye/#comment-7024 Thu, 16 May 2013 08:31:44 +0000 http://freethoughtblogs.com/zinniajones/?p=1898#comment-7024 I like it whenever people come together and share ideas.
Great website, keep it up!

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By: Tualha https://the-orbit.net/zinniajones/2013/04/looking-gosnell-in-the-eye/#comment-7023 Mon, 22 Apr 2013 09:30:32 +0000 http://freethoughtblogs.com/zinniajones/?p=1898#comment-7023 I think the Gosnell story is an excellent example of why abortion should be legal, because women who need abortions will get them, whether they’re legal or not. Banning them would only push the business underground and make unsafe, unsanitary clinics like Gosnell’s a lot more common.

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By: TotallyFreeThinker https://the-orbit.net/zinniajones/2013/04/looking-gosnell-in-the-eye/#comment-7022 Sat, 20 Apr 2013 20:22:57 +0000 http://freethoughtblogs.com/zinniajones/?p=1898#comment-7022 I’m sorry, but if this text was intended to defend the pro-choice cause against generalizations made based on the Gosnell case and its associated grand jury report, then it has failed miserably. I think you’re going too much on the defensive, here. You’re not speaking as a paragon of truth, but as an extremely radical feminist defending the right to kill babies/fetuses, no matter how developed/viable they are, at least that’s how it appears in certain passages (I’m assuming that it’s just a case of things being phrased in a way it’s easy to misinterpret them as opposed you actually supporting this view).
When you say things like “Now is not the time to be squeamish. Now is the time when we, as feminists, can show we’re not afraid to confront the difficult and unpleasant realities of abortion – the disturbing bloody images…”, compare abortions with medical procedures you explicitly state are meant to “save lives”, vilify the pro-life camp for making a pregnancy seem like it’s not necessarily something horrible and equate the killing of viable babies with the regular abortion of “fetuses, which, left alone, would have become cute little bouncing pink babies in adorable little outfits” (why the ridicule?), you’re providing the pro-life camp with exactly what it wants: statements which can be easily misrepresented to affirm the negative stereotype of pro-choice feminists as psychopaths spouting the motto “blood, gore, and infanticide!”
Indeed intact dilation and extraction can be considered more humane than the common practice of dismembering the fetus and crushing its skull that occurs during D&E abortions. The point you seem to be making is that no matter how gruesome or humane an abortion is, this has no bearing on whether the death of the fetus is justified or not, and I agree with this point. But this argument is buried deep within a variety of pro-choice jokes and clichés, and is further detracted from because you seem to be telling us gruesome medical practices are a-okay and by extension abortion as well. You would’ve made a more convincing argument if you’d said “A case can be made in favor of more humane forms of abortion, but some abortions being gruesome has no bearing on the fact that women have a right to have abortions.” and also added more explicitly that killing viable babies is wrong, regardless of whether they’re born in a hospital or an abortion clinic. The closest I got to seeing the latter mentioned is “he performed abortions that were so late term they…” followed by “assuming they were legal”, which correctly implies that they weren’t. This is then enormously downplayed, however, by stating the major bad thing about it was that they should’ve been done in clean, well-staffed clinics. When your text downplays the killing of (viable!) babies being bad to ‘just a legality’ and presents the idea that the only thing Gosnell did wrong was that his clinic wasn’t clean and well-staffed enough isn’t something that is going to come across well to anyone sensible. I assume that’s not how you meant it, but it’s very easy to interpret it as being meant that way.

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By: John Horstman https://the-orbit.net/zinniajones/2013/04/looking-gosnell-in-the-eye/#comment-7021 Thu, 18 Apr 2013 18:53:06 +0000 http://freethoughtblogs.com/zinniajones/?p=1898#comment-7021 In reply to The Mellow Monkey.

Bingo. We draw the line at fetal viability because after that point, a fetus can be delivered (technically, induced pre-term labor would still be abortion, as the pregnancy is being aborted before the woman’s body or fetus triggers the ‘normal’ end-cycle) live and allowed to continue to live. Once the fetus is out of the formerly-pregnant woman, the issue of bodily autonomy is resolved and the pregnancy is terminated. If the fetus is (possibly) viable at that point, it should not be euthanized, as euthanasia is illegal.

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By: The Mellow Monkey https://the-orbit.net/zinniajones/2013/04/looking-gosnell-in-the-eye/#comment-7020 Mon, 15 Apr 2013 14:03:00 +0000 http://freethoughtblogs.com/zinniajones/?p=1898#comment-7020 In reply to Camomile Lox.

Is this satire?

1) Once a fetus has been delivered, abortion is no longer relevant. An abortion refers to the termination of a pregnancy. With a delivered newborn, there is no longer a pregnancy. The pregnancy has already been terminated. You cannot abort a neonate. It is, by definition, impossible.

2) Fetal pain? Seriously? We’ve just had this discussion all over the atheosphere, thanks to Dawkins’ ignorance. There is mounting evidence that there is no such thing, not until delivery because “the fetus never experiences a state of true wakefulness in utero and is kept, by the presence of its chemical environment, in a continuous sleep-like unconsciousness or sedation.” Source. To suggest severing a neonate’s spinal cord is kinder than a “crazy painful abortion in the womb” is like claiming removing a kidney on a conscious patient is preferable to doing a “crazy painful organ harvest” under general anaesthesia.

3) The right to abortion is one of bodily autonomy. Once a neonate is delivered, that right ceases to exist. The morality–and legality–of severing a neonate’s spinal cord is in a completely different arena from terminating a pregnancy. This may be a question of euthanasia, but has nothing to do with abortion.

If Gosnell did as claimed, then he killed viable, independent neonates after inducing preterm delivery. Condemning those actions has nothing to do with condemning abortion or “Freudian defense mechanisms”.

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By: Camomile Lox https://the-orbit.net/zinniajones/2013/04/looking-gosnell-in-the-eye/#comment-7019 Mon, 15 Apr 2013 02:39:03 +0000 http://freethoughtblogs.com/zinniajones/?p=1898#comment-7019 In reply to Kate.

Kate, no one was comparing it to bumps and bruises. Stop extending the analogy. They never said they were completely analogous. Even an abortion inside the womb can’t be compared to bumps and bruises in a hospital.

So, are you one of those people that feel better when you can’t see their spinal cord or something? I guess he should’ve stuffed the babies back in her vagina. And were the mothers passed out or what? I keep seeing people blame only the doctor for the ‘murders’. Even people who aren’t present for murders they helped plan get part of the blame in court. Unfortunately, the women in question died fucked up deaths trying to get abortions. But if that’s what some people think, I’m surprised that people claiming they were murder even care about the women who died? Where’s the “Hurdur, she deserved to die! Disgusting!” people?

Well, I guess I’m glad they haven’t showed up.

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By: Camomile Lox https://the-orbit.net/zinniajones/2013/04/looking-gosnell-in-the-eye/#comment-7018 Mon, 15 Apr 2013 02:35:03 +0000 http://freethoughtblogs.com/zinniajones/?p=1898#comment-7018 In reply to MWStory.

Hmm, dunno if they were cut out so that he could perform pain free abortions or what. Are you arguing that when the baby comes out, it shouldn’t be aborted? I taste a bit of Freud like defense mechanism. Anyway it sure beats crazy painful abortions in the womb.

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By: Camomile Lox https://the-orbit.net/zinniajones/2013/04/looking-gosnell-in-the-eye/#comment-7017 Mon, 15 Apr 2013 02:32:38 +0000 http://freethoughtblogs.com/zinniajones/?p=1898#comment-7017 In reply to Kevin.

I completely agree, I don’t know how graphics will get anyone. Unless you’re talking about painful abortions… then I completely disagree. Sorry, but that’s sadistic at worst, cold at best. Whether it’s a fetus of a puppy or a rat in there or the fetus of a baby or even the fetus of a blob that is going through torturous pain, I don’t approve of torturing things, and I can’t just “so what” that. C-section, sever spine… no need to be lazy, doctors.

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By: Camomile Lox https://the-orbit.net/zinniajones/2013/04/looking-gosnell-in-the-eye/#comment-7016 Mon, 15 Apr 2013 02:29:33 +0000 http://freethoughtblogs.com/zinniajones/?p=1898#comment-7016 In reply to Randomfactor.

You’re using the race card? *facepalm* I seriously doubt there is a significant or notable amount of people who don’t give a crap about the deaths because they’re not white. This is as silly as the arguments about Amanda Todd’s suicide. “They only care because she’s white!” I don’t appreciate such random guesses like this -ever-. And yeah, it’s random. There is no observable reason to think that. It only shows the race-oriented thinking of the card puller.

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By: MWStory https://the-orbit.net/zinniajones/2013/04/looking-gosnell-in-the-eye/#comment-7015 Sat, 13 Apr 2013 07:25:38 +0000 http://freethoughtblogs.com/zinniajones/?p=1898#comment-7015 In reply to VeritasKnight.

Be fair, this account is a lot kinder to Gosnell than any other I have read, and despite criticising the grand jury report for manipulative language (not unusual in a murder trial), it engages in quite a bit of that itself. For starters, the notion that the ‘proper vernacular’ should be one which hides the details comes over like special pleading, and the crimes of Gosnell are minimised eg

he was arguably negligent with the way he prescribed drugs

This refers to his killing a woman by repeated injections of out of date and unsafe anaesthetics

no doctor, no matter how much good they intend, should be recklessly endangering lives.

Implies that he was trying to do good rather than profit from his crimes

It’s difficult to argue that the abortions Gosnell performed were not wrong, because there were clearly so many things he did that were wrong.

But even if they had been performed in a medically competent way, they would still have been illegal since the majority of those late-term aborted babies were healthy and could have survived outside of the womb.

This piece is not well written, if the point is that people who support abortion should condemn this man’s (unrepresentative) crimes while upholding the right to abortions performed legally then it does a bad job of arguing it.

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