It’s war once there’s casualties, right?
Jen McCreight and her commenters dubbed the necessity for a third wave of atheism — a wave that actually gives a shit about people who are getting forced out of the movement by a cloud of vile hatred just because they’re not cis males — as “atheism plus”. A forum is built and a thousand members join within a week. Organizations form to shore up some social justice movement intersections with the atheist community. We built something good. Something energizing. Something that portends a great swamp-draining. A way for movement atheism to heal itself.
Then a whole antifeminist and anti-woman wing of the atheist movement rallies to show us why we can’t have nice things. They amp up the hatred, the vitriol, the vileness. They steal Jen’s resources and leave her drained and incapable of contributing, by making her clean up rivers of bullshit aimed at tarring her personhood, slut-shaming her, and threatening her job by taking the same bullshit to her employers. They make her dread contributing her writings to this movement. This movement which she loved. This movement in which she gathered fans of her writing as easily as some people breathe.
She was a bright shining star in the atheist community when she joined, with all the energy and motivation in the world — but because she was young, not ugly, and made the mistake of mentioning that she has boobs, she started gathering the wrong kind of attention. Then she realized her mistake and started fighting, and the same community that once welcomed her energy and motivation turned on her.
Not everyone, of course. Just the terribly entitled ones who registered her demands that people stop being such assholes as “being divisive”. The people who take “stop being such assholes” as a challenge to prove exactly how big an asshole you can be.
And the irony of it is, this is why a third wave of atheism is entirely necessary. The same people who would bully Jen McCreight out of the community do the same to any female voice that speaks up. Some of them do a victory lap about pushing Jen out of the movement (and yes, this is a shameless bit of self-congratulation on having done damage to the movement!). And they simultaneously ask, “why is atheism plus necessary?”
It’s necessary because of you. It’s necessary because of the colours of Team Douchebag that you so proudly wear while you’re attacking vital new members of the community who dare to talk about issues that might only affect, say, women. It’s necessary especially because there are some among you who won’t wear your colours off the field. It’s necessary because of the divide — the “Great Rift” in our community — between normal, reasonable people, and people who hate as a matter of course. It’s necessary because some people think that if you stomp on sadists who get off on bullying people, then YOU’RE the bully. It’s necessary because some people need to destroy to make themselves feel important.
Some people say you can’t win a war on trollishness.
Maybe not, but you can make the trolls wear their colors off the field. You can show the world exactly what kind of hate-filled monsters some of your supposed “leaders” are. You can prove that the antifeminist and anti-woman factions — our largest single issue for movement cohesion at the moment — are the ones driving the divide and are the ones that make atheism plus a necessity. They are the ones drumming people out of the movement. They are the ones embracing tribalism. They are the ones making atheism plus a divisive idea — because they cling tenaciously to the idea that giving offense is sacrosanct. These people WANT an “us vs them” war, but the reasonable people who recognize that hatred has no place in our movement to be the “them” in the equation. All because they worship offense as its own greatest good, and hold the status quo of privilege as our golden cow.
And here I thought we weren’t supposed to have gods or idols in this community.
So congratulations on your victory, those of you who consider “atheism plus” to be an evil that one must fight. You’ve managed to push out one of our brightest stars.
Know, though, that I’m not going anywhere. And you won’t win the war.
Update: To avoid giving anyone any misperceptions, Jen did not say that she was quitting blogging, or the community. She’s taking a break. But that means she’s taking a break because of the hatred she’s incurring, which amounts to bullying, which amounts to a subset of our community forcing her out. This changes nothing in the above post except that Jen’s taking a breather, not a bow.
Won a battle NOT the war douchebags.
Sad to hear, but no retreat, no surrender.
Internet Hugs to Jen McCreight if she wants them.
Unfortunately, you can’t shame trolls either. They feed off reactions like this. They do not represent atheists or skeptics. They do not speak for any community. They are a product of the internet. They are the loud, abusive minority and are immune to reason.
Fuckin’ A+.
No retreat. No surrender.
(And into the bargain we’ll find ways to sandbag against the rising tide of filth and vileness that threatens any one of us.)
Cut the crap. This is staged theater. There will be an avalanche of pity blogs, which you have started; much wailing and gnashing of teeth about poor martyred, soon to be sainted, Jen; then there will be a triumphal comeback and proclamations in the street of “victory over the haters”.
We’ve all seen your circus antics on FTB for far too long to believe you are capable of anything approaching honesty or sincerity. FTB is a shallow propaganda mill. It’s nauseating to behold.
Charlatans and frauds. Especially you, Thibedeedoo.
Yeah, right. Thanks for the IP, BarfSimpson, I’m storing it in a special place: my moderation list.
Well said, Jason.
A lot of comments on Jen’s blog are calling for a hydra response – Jen might be taking a break, and it hurts to lose her voice and perspective, but if this inspires new voices to speak up and be heard then their mission to silence people who fight against deplorable behaviour is ultimately a loss for them.
Here’s to a movement where people are treated fairly instead of like second- or third-class members due to accidents of birth!
Twitter makes me hate people and despair
@ddave: amen! I find “barf simpson” on the pathetic side. Somebody who has
done nothing at all, and feels he (and I’ll bet 10:1 it’s a he) can urinate
all over the good work of FtB and others who have given a lot to this
movement. It’s why we need A+. But conservatives just can’t stand the
fact that a lot of us aren’t conservative and aren’t going to be.
I really wish people would stop calling these hateful assholes “trolls”. They really aren’t. Just stop it, ok?
I call them “hateful assholes” and people say “they’re just trolls”. I call them “trolls” and people say “they’re not trolls”. I call them hateful trolls, and team douchebag, and I still get people nitpicking what I say about them.
Whatever you call them, they’re not a product of the community. If you label them as your enemy, you would be best served to try to understand why they do what they do. The common response from this new A+ group seems to be “Shut up! They are evil and that’s that!” The harassment is indeed coming from douchebags. Are they atheists? Does it matter? It’s not coming from the community. I’ve been to plenty of community gatherings of equally mixed races and genders and have not once witnessed such drama IRL. We get together, share our stories, and talk about how we can help other atheists be accepted. That’s pretty much the extent to which an atheist, by definition, would participate in any kind of organized event.
Atheists and skeptics are, for the most part, very rational, thoughtful people. Telling them to “shut up” when they say something you might not agree with will not help your end goal. If there’s an apparent problem in the community, our best bet is to try to find the root of the cause…not splinter off into fringe groups and start attacking windmills.
I think the weirdest aspect of this A+ movement is that it seems to counter atheist logic. We support open and free thought, not creeds or rule books. We don’t hold beliefs of any sort, nor do we try to influence another person’s behavior. Maybe I have the wrong idea of what it means to be an atheist. I welcome any differing opinions.
RichardWatkins: You really need to read the linked “victory lap” from OP. Those tweets catalog people who have been part of movement atheism for in some cases years. And by part I mean they are meatspace participants in conferences and conventions and in at least one case a self-proclaimed “leader” of a minor geographical part of the movement. And that’s not to mention the REAL leaders of the movement, people like Dawkins, calling for boycotts of US.
Why do you think your personal experience, i.e. argument from ignorance, justifies that claim? Harassers in real life usually make sure that nobody is going to witness their aggression, at least nobody who’s going to care.
There’s extensive research and posts on this, from “Hyperskepticism” on this very blog to “Why I Did Not Report” on Almost Diamonds and “This is why women don’t report harassment” on Ashley Miller’s.
It most certainly does come from the “movement”.
In the early days of the “New Atheists”, the most outspoken critics of religion were libertarians, like Penn Gillette.
The problem is, Libertarians tend to believe their beliefs are logical and reasonable, and so, never examine them, despite significant historical and scientific evidence contradicting said beliefs.
To prevent such beliefs from being examined, they planted this idea that atheism should not be involved with social justice efforts. Its a defensive meme, which unfortunately, leads to a significant amount of pushback.
What do you mean “we”? The “we” that I belong to supports open and free thought, but doesn’t childishly stomp their feet when someone suggests basic rules of civility and decency. We are human beings that have beliefs about all sorts of things including social justice, not cardboard cutouts that are magically above and apart from the realities of living in society. We damn well want to influence people, change their minds, because we think the world is better when people are better to each other.
Being an “atheist” is completely meaningless if it doesn’t lead anywhere other than masturbatory self-satisfaction over being “smarter” than theists.
STOP. PLAYING. THE VICTIM. JASON.
Are you so eager to play the blame game? So eager to make yourself out to be the victim? The harassment that Jen has endured IS NOT THE NORM. IT IS NOT THE NORM OF THE COMMUNITY. Stop making it out to be such, because it’s PISSING ME OFF. For a year, Jennifer McCreight has made unfounded accusations of misogyny and sexism of atheists, within the atheist community, within TAM, within JREF. Does she expect making broad accusations like that will fly without a hitch? Without criticism?
Not to mention she has a tendency to conflate legitimate criticism with her harassment, and more often than not conclude that the legitimate criticism (of feminism, of atheism+) *is* harassment. That’s called bullshitting, Jason. I trust you know of it? STILL, there’s plenty of atheists — plenty more than the loud minority who fling abuse — who’ve supported her, who’ve decried the harassment she’s received (including me). Her blog posts contain more support than abuse, and yet the latter is the one being touted. Ridiculous.
I mean, is your wish to promote modern feminists as fragile and weakwilled, or strong and independent? If the latter, maybe it’s time to grow up? Or should we expect more unfounded generalisations on atheists and men, slurs like ‘gender traitor’ and ‘rape enabler’, calls for bans on fake jewellery, requests for people to change their article of clothing if the text on it is offensive (to you), implications that men in elevators are rapists, and so on and so forth?
And don’t exploit this incident to confirm your aspirations on a “third wave of atheism.” Are you seriously going to stand by McCreight and Reed in their complete generalisation of the entire atheist community? Then to call it A+, to make you feel morally superior to anyone who didn’t — or doesn’t — join your new clique? Fuck you. As you’re so keen to point out, feminists are not a monolith, and neither are atheists, as well you should know, Jason, you dishonest snake.
PG: Your concern has been noted.
PG:
*very slow clap*
If your response to someone getting pushed out of the movement is to call people deploring that action a “snake” and “playing the victim”, maybe you’re part of the fucking problem.
From OP:
Your cries of “STOP TARRING THE WHOLE COMMUNITY” are fucking useless here. Either start screaming at the people doing bullshit like this to good people like Jen, or stop screaming at the people who are pointing out those assholes. You materially aid the assholes when you attack the people who point them out. And you are helping damage the movement as a whole. Ergo, part of the problem.
@20
I call you a snake for dishonestly exploiting this situation to affirm your aspirations for Atheism+, when that aspiration originates from generalising the entire atheist community. And did she get pushed out? Did she get pushed out by the community at large? Don’t bullshit, Jason.
Fuck off PG. You’re wrong and you’re actively lying. No one is “tarring” any “whole community.” That’s stupid. And it’s the eternal complaint of anyone who hates having bad behavior anywhere pointed out. It’s bullshit. You’re bullshit. And I conclude you approve of the crap being thrown at Jen. There’s no other explanation for your motivation. You’re the problem.
If the only thing that motivates you to action is people tarring the community by complaining about its worst members, without actually doing anything about those terrible people, then yes, you are part of the problem — that problem being the conflation of our community with those terrible people. We shall not want for your point of view here, PG. See ya!
@21
Her contention — and yours — is that was she “pushed out” by the movement. Bullshit. Her blog post consists of blaming the overarching atheist community for her grievances, and yours is to use this grievance to reaffirm this “third wave of atheism.” I’m more than happy to tell the assholes to go fuck themselves, in fact I have, but I’m not exactly jumping for joy to have Jen misappropriate the entire atheist community for her childish campaign.
It’s just not true that she was “pushed out” and it’s especially not true that the majority of the community is sexist and misogynist.
This is the last comment of yours I’ll approve, PG, because I need to make this point. Exactly what percentage of the community has to be haters before we’re willing to do something about it? If this were medicine, and the trolls, haters and people who just need to destroy anything good were, say, a tumor on the body of movement atheism, when are we allowed to cut that tumor out? At what point is it okay to give chemotherapy and stop worrying that the doctors are complaining that “most of the body is cancer” when nobody’s saying anything even remotely like that?
@22
Atheism+ is not based on generalizing ‘plusless’ atheists at all, but about being another more meaningful banner under which people can rally for causes above and beyond ‘GOD NOT EXIST’ by itself.
You want to talk about playing the victim? Try the nearest mirror.
Frankly, as somebody who has only occasionally read the postings and vitriol recently on this issue, I think FTB is approaching the point where some contributors will need to be tossed out of the whole platform. This will lead to the usal whining about “censorship” etc. but if somebody is poisoning the well, you don’t stand by and let them kill the village.
A lot of the blogs have become forums for toxic exchanges and drive-by trolling and other forms of wankery. If no action is taken, FTB will slowly (or possibly more quickly) cease to be relevant as an aggregation point for discussion and debate. People will vote with their clicks, just like they did when FTB came into existence and a lot of people bailed from ScienceBlogs to start up here.
I’m finally signing up to Atheism+ as well. If nothing else, I suspect less people will sit on the sides after this.
@11, A+ as I see it is quite simply atheists treating people like people – which means showing some empathy and compassion, instead of bigotry and harassment. What’s wrong with that?
Just because you haven’t seen abuse, that doesn’t mean it occurs. By your logic, since I’ve never seen anyone having sex (I’m asexual), it doesn’t occur.
You can prove it? Then surely you wouldn’t mind sharing some evidence for peer review. (I won’t hold my breath, however.)
1) Demonize a certain faction of the population.
2) Offer yourselves as the solution to the problem.
3) Round-up dissenters and clean house.
Sorry for the analogy, but the Aryan Nation couldn’t have done it better.
Shut the fuck up troll. Your multiple personas and false flags on various blogs are noted.
We have all been talking about specific people, specific actions, and trends toward misogyny and antifeminism in our movement for at least a year, probably more. You want to tell me it’s NOT the most visible problem movement atheism has? It’s time for you to start offering alternatives with evidence, nohellbelowus. Because you’re saying “what evidence” in front of a mountain of it.
Srsly? What else does he post under, Josh?
Jason, nohellbelowus is the only identity I know him as. But he shows up in threads pretending to be sympathetic then lobs some disgusting misogynist or sexist slur. He’s trash and an expert derailer.
Right. The community as a whole is just more willing to whine about being called sexist and misogynist than to actually DO anything about those who actually ARE sexist or misogynistic.
Jen pointed out the existence of the “backchannel” of guys to watch out for in the community, and the result was the implementation of a better system of dealing with harassment. Most atheist groups adopted this. JREF, Thunderfoot and the others decided that these policies were worth fighting agains. And yet they claim themselves the victims of “bullying”, and you defend them.
You’ve made your position clear to everyone. The only person you’re fooling is yourself, and the rest of the assholes who think their position of privilege is the rational point of neutrality.
Wow, that was quick for a Godwin.
So, nohell, I suppose you take that stand with any social justice cause, then? A+: fascists ‘cos we don’t like misogynists! The marriage equality movement: evil for demonizing “Christian values”! The labor movement: Musslinis! All of them!
*spit!*
Gotcha, misinterpreted “personas” to mean sockpuppets. Thanks Josh.
A less contentious way of framing PG’s point may be that the same people who interact perfectly reasonable and contribute much to the movement in real life are some of the same people that unleash a torrent of hate under pseudonyms. Maybe that means they are misogynists at heart and it’s great to shine a light on it or maybe it would be better to stop allowing people to post under pseudonyms and using FTBs as a way to unleash their demons on others.
I am Chas Stewart, and I approve this message.
@LeftWingFox
If you are talking about Anti Harassment Policies then you are wrong to say that JREF opposed them. They were the first skeptical conferences to think about implementing an AHP now whether it was effective is a different and more substantive subject.
It’s telling that so many clueless demi-haters want to complain about demonizing “the entire atheist community”. Because Jen’s also part of the atheist community. So are Greta, Stephanie, Surly Amy, Jason, PZ, Carrier, all the frustrated women and lurkers coming forward and all of us commenters who’ve been learning and getting angry about this shit for years. But it’s telling that in a hater’s mind, “the community” includes misogynists and misogynist-enablers, but not the targets. The targets are not worthy of inclusion.
birdterrifier: No. Emphatically. Pseudonymity might be a double-edged sword but it’s too important to sacrifice.
Rebecca Watson, Amy Davies Roth, Jen McCreigh, Greta Christina, Stephanie Zvan, Ophelia Benson, all just exceptions. There’s tons of outspoken feminist women in the movement who don’t get that abuse.
Too bad Jason blocked you or else you could tell us about them…
birdterrifier @36: If someone can unleash a torrent of misogyny and hate under a pseudonym then they are a misogynist in “real life” too, just better at hiding it. Kind of like if someone unleashes a torrent of racist or misogynist speech while they are drunk, the alcohol did not turn them into a racist or misogynist, it just took the filters off and let them say what they were already thinking.
see_the_galaxy says:
I know what you mean. He comes across like a slightly simple school child, who’s found his place in the school hierarchy by sucking up to a gang of bullies, and echoing their taunts. He takes other hater’s arguments, and regurgitates them in that ridiculous turgid writing style of his.
if A+ allows people to express themselves and not get bogged down reading and responding to trolls, then hurray. I’m not sure it’s the THIRD WAVE and from now on all atheists that are good atheists will drop where ever they are “(Humanist group, Unitarian church, hunting for Big Foot…trust me I’ve heard more than one A+ member lament the atheist foray into skepticism and derision of any atheist that does not work for the end to social injustice,and I’m always “hey it’s just a hobby, and they like doing it. Chill.”…or say working on keeping homeopathic medications from being paid for by the government thus sucking money out of real medical care) and join up as not being REAL atheists doing good front line work. I think there is room for all, and if you don’t join up, because you are busy or simply you are an atheist and are busy with other things in your life to join ANYTHING, you are still a “good atheist”. You are still on the “front line” simply because coming out as an atheist is something that puts you between the targeting sights of so many groups. I have had nice white rich well educated men break down in tears at how they are hurt by the prejudice they encountered once they came out. How parents, grandparents, and even in one case a loved fiancee who was soon an ex fiancee, broke their hearts with their prejudice. Some of course choose to follow a path of “I now understand better, and it makes me go out of my way to be kinder and more understanding to women, minorities and others that have a far worse time with prejudice than I do.” But to say that the white male gets a pass from prejudice in the world of atheism is untrue. I don’t think A+ is saying that. I think they are saying “We want to do some good work HERE, and we aren’t going to fuss, fight or defend our stand. Join if you want and ignore what that one guy blogger wrote…Jenn did point out he did NOT represent us.” It’s the whole NEW WAVE, and NEW GENERATION…no, you earn that, you don’t declare that. Time will show, and I wish them the best and am happy with their first few projects. Sometimes you need to stop wasting time replying to the idiots to actually have time to do something. Let’s see what you can do A+!!! Then, say give it a year or two, we’ll know if you ARE the “WAVE” or if you are just another part of a community of different people…and some have decided that working on your projects is perfect for them.
@12 – I’ve seen the arguments/complaints from both sides. There’s gross exaggeration and misrepresentation occurring equally on both fronts.
@13 – In no way did I claim it’s not occurring. I claimed it’s not a product of the community.
@15 – The atheists I know and respect already treat people with compassion. I think it’s silly to have to form a group to tell people to do that. If you behave rationally, there’s no reason one wouldn’t treat others with compassion and respect…it’s inherent in our species. Human beings evolved a sense of community through evolution to protect the species. We act “good” because we’re wired to. Those who act “bad” do so under the influence of external belief systems and/or neurological defects. It’s more productive to try to understanding why than to point fingers and alienate.
@17 – Trying to convince others to subscribe to your beliefs is the very core of religion. I’m not stomping my feet at all. I’m offering my thoughts on the issue and you can consume them however you please. As an atheist, I take pride that I have the freedom to think without influence of beliefs. I have good ideas about how the world works, but all I can do is try to present my ideas in a clear and rational manner. Whether or not someone agrees is up to them. I’m in no position to try to influence the beliefs or actions of other people.
BTW, the majority of these comments involve emotional responses and name-calling. Rule #1 in dealing with a “douchebag” is not to insult him, it only makes things worse. That’s Human Behavior 101.
QFT
@Jason Thibeault
I understand and have had to deal with people who were unwilling or too scared to reveal their real names in order to join my local atheist’s secret FaceBook group because of the possible repercussions of being outed but our group is far less flamey now that we don’t allow pseudonyms. But, if pseudonyms are so important then what do you think can help stop the madness?
Maybe the comments should be heavily moderated so that the fora don’t turn in to shouting matches? Of course, there’s nothing we can do about twitter but do you think that naming and shaming pseudonyms on the internet (they could be misogynists, trolls or asshole trolls) is helping stem the tide of hatred being spewed that ends up tormenting those who are willing to stand out in the community (Greta Christina, Stephanie Zvan, Jen McCreight et al.)? Is creating a separate group like A+ going to stop the creeps from attacking you all?
Gawd, teh stupid burns so bad!
That’s a dirty fucking lie.
Well, you’re wrong.
HURR DURR IF I DON’T SEE IT THEN THAT MEANS IT DOESN’T EXIST. HURR DURR.
What. The. Fuck. Someone fire your biology professor. Or psychology professor. Probably both. Damn, that was just painfully ignorant.
Wow, the first true thing you wrote. How did it feel?
NOPE WRONG AGAIN. Damn you are stupid.
The question must always be asked: productive of what?? So far the main concern seems to be producing happy feelings on the part of oppressive sexist douchebags.
Nope, subscribing to unfalsifiable or obviously falsified supernatural beliefs is the core of religion. Trying to convince people of the rightness of your beliefs is universal human behavior.
*gag* *barf* Syrup of ipecac, please!
BWAHAHAHAH
“think without the influence of beliefs,” man that is hilariously nonsensical and meaningless. You MUST be a Poe.
You’ve tried and failed. You are unclear and irrational.
You are in the position of expressing your somehow belief-free thoughts on a public forum. You just said that you think that you have good ideas about how the world works; by characterizing your ideas (which magically contain zero beliefs!) as “good” you are implicitly stating that you think there are other ideas which rational human being should reject in favor of yours.
Damn straight they do! Emotions are a complicated system of thinking that inform everything we human beings do! Only idiots and assholes claim that it’s desirable, or even possible, to act without emotion. Name-calling is what happens when stupid idiots like yourself spout their idiocy. Name-calling serves the useful purpose of making it clear that there is a social cost to being so unbearably, insufferably arrogant and painfully dense.
This rule sounds like it was made up by a douchebag.
Nope, just Douchebag behavior 101. Fuck you, asshole.
———————————–
*aahhhhh*
That was cathartic. Thanks for posting something so utterly asinine that there were literally zero moments when I had to stop to check whether you were actually making a valid point.
richardwatkins,
I can’t tell if you are trolling or delusional, and I really don’t care because in either case you’re WRONG. Pretending that you don’t react emotionally and that you don’t have beliefs is scary irrational on your part, and it obviously leads you to a bunch of incorrect conclusions.
What species would that be? Something extraterrestrial?
And here’s a clue: there are things that exist whether personally experience them or not.
Like, for example uterine cancer. That exists, whether you suffer it or not.
And here’s a followup shocker: bigotry exists too. Whether privileged white dude notices it or not.
Who knows? But clearly we have to try, since you and your pals aren’t going to lift a finger to try to stop them.