So, I have this problem. A vacuous shitbag troll is running around telling everyone that I’m a homophobe based on a reading of my comment here:
DJ Grothe is not LITERALLY a douchebag, as he does not store vinegar or other potentially harmful chemicals in his person for the purposes of “cleansing” a woman’s vagina. In fact, I hear he wants little to do with women’s vaginas.
When people who have shown every intention of manufacturing controversy just happen to be right about something, I have this tendency to not believe them because of all the dross they’ve spat out before. I sometimes trust my pattern recognition all too much. The fact that this troll is presently spamming both DJ and all my compatriots, and has been for two days, is galling, but must not blind me to the fact that some people could find that offensive.
Here’s the thing: that post COULD be read as homophobic. It may not have occurred to me at the time, but that doesn’t mean it’s not so. The absolute last thing I want to do is incur any splash damage to gays, especially not by suggesting that being gay automatically entails misogyny, regardless that other gay folk have speculated that it does in fact inform DJ’s present privilege-blind state given that DJ once used it as a pre-emptive shield against criticism for his actions in defending Ryan Grant Long. I am not in a position to speculate on that sort of thing myself, regardless of how many others have done so before me. Propagating that meme that gays are de facto misogynist, even accidentally, is a kinda douchy thing of me to do.
Under no circumstances were those my intentions, and I sincerely apologize without reservation to any gay folk who feel marginalized or minimized by that comment.
To that end, I will revise that comment to eliminate any potential of splash damage.
DJ Grothe is not LITERALLY a douchebag, as he does not store vinegar or other potentially harmful chemicals in his person for the purposes of “cleansing” a woman’s vagina. I understand he has little respect for women — many of whom own those vaginas that douches harm — anyway, considering he’s tried to convince them that their harassment didn’t happen, and tried to convince everyone else that this harassment was in actuality post-hoc regret about their sexual exploits. And yet he will not apologize for any of this or to the handful of women bloggers he’s repeatedly thrown under the bus, even while apologizing to Rebecca Watson personally. As though this was all about her.
There we go. Perfectly defensible, and it doesn’t hurt anyone else but DJ in the process.
Meanwhile, the troll is still a vacuous shitbag, and is still banned here. And I’ll stand by my statement that DJ is acting like a douchebag to women, until such time that he walks back the statement I took issue with in this post. We’re all still waiting, DJ.
So, “vaginas’ owners” is now an acceptable term to use when referring to ‘women’?
Sorry mate, try another do-over, it’s often been said that the third try is a charm. My unsolicited advice would be to dispense with the “douchebag” reference altogether, but I think that would entail revising your original post.
steveschulers #1
Please explain what’s wrong with this description of women.
It is the consensus of FtB regulars that “douchebag” is an acceptable insult, in as much as douches are actually harmful to women.
But please rest assured that your concern is noted.
@Tis
My bad, bro.
I really do believe in the social equality of vaginas’ owners and men. Or should I say penis owners in place of men?
“Please explain what’s wrong with this description of women.”
Because it is derogatory and sexist
Why, it’s even arguably cissexist, since there are quite a few owners of vaginas who are not, in fact, women. And owners of penises who are not men. “Vaginas’ owners” is clunky, but potentially more inclusive.
How about we as men stop discussing what is offensive towards women as though we get a vote, and wait to see what actual women have to say on the subject?
NO. Not only is it a back reference to both the original quote and the sentence before it, but not all women are vagina owners, and not all vagina owners are women. Care to apologize for transphobic complaints?
@Tom
Pretty pathetic rationalization, amigo.
But you know, it could catch on.
Tom actually beat me to it. Damn. On my own blog. I should delete his comment so I said it FIRST AND BEST!!!!1
“NO. Not only is it a back reference to both the original quote and the sentence before it, but not all women are vagina owners, and not all vagina owners are women. Care to apologize for transphobic complaints?”
You used the term and it was clear which gender was meant. Why use that term at all?
Since “douchebag” literally was an unnecessary and harmful implement for use on vaginas? Yeah, in this case I think context informs “vaginas’ owners” sufficiently. Especially since we’re still talking, y’know, about the JREF president’s spoken words slut-shaming women, which reduces them to nothing more than (presumed) custodians of said vaginas and other sexually relevant body parts; and somehow I doubt HE would’ve thought to make that distinction.
Nice, so craft some personal attacks at a person making a criticism in what you call an apology…and then levy more personal attacks at DJ Grothe that are perhaps even worse than what you said before. Grats, also, on banning those who make reasoned, lengthy, and serious criticism and what seems to be a shift of the problem. Apparently, you’re trying to make it so that your comment wasn’t an issue, but rather me calling it out was the issue. Would you also like DJ to respond to you while calling you a vacuous shitbag?
@ steveschulers
“Or should I say penis owners in place of men?”
From what I’ve seen the preferred term is “penis havers”
. . .
@ Steve Williamson
“Because it is derogatory and sexist”
It is not a standard derogatory like dick or cunt so context is crucial to the interpretation. In this context it seems to me that it is not derogatory. Particularly considering the source.
VacuousShitbagTroll, to whom did you imagine the apology is directed?
(Are you banned?)
Because douches are harmful to vaginas and their owners, Steve Williamson. It doesn’t matter if you’re woman or not, douches are harmful to vaginas and their owners.
Nice derail though, guys. Who cares about DJ telling women that harassment didn’t happen or isn’t serious, JASON SAID VAGINA.
John Morales: yes, Justin Vacula is banned. Again. And he’s not in this conversation or any other.
You know, I have to hand it to Justin. He really walks the walk. He said he thinks it’s childish of Rebecca Watson to refrain from going where she’s been made to feel unwelcome, and true to form, he comes back to a place where he’s been explicitly unwelcomed. Such maturity.
I only wish he’d apply the same consistency to his disdain for 4th-grade tactics; specifically running off to Twitter to tattle on Jason for being mean. That Jason was wrong to make his splash-damage insult doesn’t make Justin’s behavior right, mature, or anything more than utterly pathetic.
But keep reaching for the straws, Justin!
“Because douches are harmful to vaginas and their owners, Steve Williamson. It doesn’t matter if you’re woman or not, douches are harmful to vaginas and their owners.”
I am not taking issue with this though am I? I am taking issue with you using the term “vagina owner” where it is blatantly obvious that women are being referred to. I find this a derogatory term to use irrespective of the context. What’s wrong with calling them what they are – women?
You’ve already been told what’s wrong, you idiot. Vagina owner =/= woman.
Now, as a woman, a vagina owner, a happy user of the term “douchebag” to mean exactly what Jason means by it, someone who has faced unwarranted skepticism when I talk about harassment, and the person who is trying to get JREF to even say there will be an anti-harassment policy this year, fuck off.
Steve. Stand down. It’s a literary technique. He used the term “vagina’s owners” because everything before that had been in reference to vaginas, so he was maintaining a parallel structure. It’s ok.
@ Steve Williamson
“I find this a derogatory term to use irrespective of the context”
And other males seem to disagree. Due to the inherrent asymmetry our opinions really mean dick-all here. If some one of the stature (and gender) of LeftSidePositive were to opine on this I would be inclined to accept her judgment. Until then this is just a pissing contest and I’m leaving the men’s room.
I love it when guys bitterly argue over what’s offensive to women. Have any women weighed in yet?
Oh for god’s sake. Are you so freaking desperate? This is truly pathetic. Are you really whipping out the ‘It’s not homophobic because there are gays who say I’m totally right”? As if there are no women who disagree with the original assessments against Grothe.
My god you are a sad little troll, aren’t you?
You screwed up big time. Take the heat or get out of arrogant, pretentious and desperate kitchen.
“You’ve already been told what’s wrong, you idiot. Vagina owner =/= woman.
Now, as a woman, a vagina owner, a happy user of the term “douchebag” to mean exactly what Jason means by it, someone who has faced unwarranted skepticism when I talk about harassment, and the person who is trying to get JREF to even say there will be an anti-harassment policy this year, fuck off.”
Resorting to personal attacks and insults is rather childish don’t you think?
“Vagina owner =/= woman.”
I am fully aware of this – however – in this blog entry and this whole sorry debacle it is patently clear who is meant. Let’s ALL stop with the stupid name calling and stop the personal insults shall we? The way people are behaving in this is making a spectacle of the whole thing and is doing the community and movement no good whatsoever. as I have said – attack the issue at hand – the sexism – not the people. Please refrain from insults whilst doing so. If one cannot accept constructive criticisms, as I believe I am making, and you resort to name calling and insults, what does that say really about you as a person?
Steve–I think humorous descriptions like this, where the commentary is CLEARLY criticizing other people who look at women as nothing but vaginas, and not comporting with the author’s position in everything else he’s ever written, are perfectly acceptable. It is an obvious reference to douching and it’s harms to vaginas, so the focus on vaginas is appropriate.
I don’t mean to play the I’m-a-woman-and-I-don’t-have-a-problem-with-it, but seriously–I don’t. I enthusiastically use the term “douchebag” to refer to those people who are caustic to women, and a humorous juxtaposition of “vagina-owners” with the demeaning way DJ is behaving is just plain hilarious. I think women and our allies may refer to phenomena humorously, and it’s ABUNDANTLY clear what Jason’s values are (unless of course you’re going to troll Jonathan Swift as well, and be outraged about the whole baby-eating thing?!). And I don’t think I’ve seen any women here who object, and I certainly don’t, so until that happens, it looks like you’re White-Knighting.
Jason–you used my meme*!!! I’m so flattered 🙂
*Although in truth that was really only a rebuttal in a meme-debate with someone who tried to claim, via meme, that DJ hadn’t said “locker room banter” with regards to sexual harassment claims…so, really, that whole thing was only one step up from Tim Minchin’s bumper-based philosophical argument:
No, it’s simply affording you all the time and attention you deserve. What is childish is arguing your point but continually insisting that it’s “clear”. It’s the internet equivalent of foot-stomping.
“by continually insisting” There goes that time and attention again.
KEEP POUNDING THE TABLE, GUYS! The ladies will be real impressed!!!
This comment thread’s starting to look like Project Steve.
For what it’s worth I much prefer insults to mealy-mouth politico talk, but hey, that’s just me. At least with insults you make it crystal clear where you stand.
@LSP – I accept what you say. Who is Jonathan Swift? Certainly not trying to White-Knight, but I *do* find the term derogatory. It was so nice of Stephanie to tell me to “fuck off” in such a nice mature fashhion for having my own opinion and I thank you for your more mature approach. Am I not allowed to have such an opinion? Is the not the “FREE-THOUGHT” blogs?
Oh – Baby’s are best oven-roasted – not grilled… 😉
Just for fun, Dan Savage’s spin on “douchebag” is that anal douching is a real thing and that both cis and trans men and cis and trans women (with rare exceptions) have anuses, so the insult does not have a definitive, airtight gender.
Hey, LeftSidePositive, Steve here would like you to be grateful for being differentiated from me. Isn’t that sweet?
Charming. Steve expresses his discomfort with the term “vagina owner” and gets called an idiot. This post and such comments are really helping the divisiveness issue. Can you people unclench long enough to see that Steve has a valid point even if you don’t agree with it? Oh no, I’m sorry, those days are gone. You are a moron with no reading comprehension if you disagree now.
Why the hell does it matter whether other males agree or disagree with Steve? He’s expressed his opinion clearly and rationally, without calling names like Jason and Stephanie have — why does that make him an idiot exactly? Personally (and I guess I have to identify myself as a woman to dismiss one set of assumptions and stereotypes and bring on another one), I don’t like “vagina owners” at all either. I do absolutely see why Jason used it, so I was not offended by the context, but it is perfectly fine for someone else to find it offensive. (And for those playing the transgender card, fine: make it “transgender and ciswomen.”)
The hypocrisy is fucking staggering. Y’all are screaming at people to accept that things you find offensive are so, but when the tables are turned, your polite critics are just overreacting idiots. This is bullshit, unhumanist, and not skeptical or rational in any way.
Joey, what exactly is polite about acting as though D.J. never said what he said?
Women who are five-foot-nine-and-a-half: the ultimate moral arbiter on sexism. Hey, five-eighters, you think something’s sexist? You’re just over-thinking it and stop whining, shortie!!!
—
In all seriousness, I’m quite genuinely flattered that my comments have earned such esteem! Thanks for your kind thoughts (and for reading my arguments with douchebags!).
smhll> THANK you! I am male and both me and my male partner have used douchebags! They’re unisex now! And you don’t have to use vinegar!
I -am- concerned about possible health effects, though, not so much for me, but my partner likes to…er…freshen up sometimes if we expect to get…er…romantic? No vancy vinegar for him, though, just lukewarm water from the tap. Is he at risk?
Updated statement:
I love how the essential argument is, “it’s okay to do total shitbag things to whole classes of people as long as you don’t swear while doing it, but try to defend them while swearing and you’re INDEFENSIBLE AND IRRATIONAL”
Also, this is not about “divisiveness”. If the movement has to be torn in two to cut out the people who think women have no right to not be harassed, where is the value in sticking together?
And where the hell were you when D.J. was being “divisive” by suggesting the people working to get harassment policies in place were driving women away from TAM? Where was your skepticism when he pinned the decrease in the percentage of female attendees on week-old blog posts?
If you’re already angry at some people, fine, but try to figure out some priorities here.
**brain explodes**
Try here…
—
For the record, I am not the LEAST bit disinclined to tell people to fuck off. You’re talking to the woman who coined the term “Fuckskreig,” after all…
Yes, you’re permitted to have an opinion, but be aware that common decency would lead one to be a bit more reserved about speaking for the opinions of OTHER PEOPLE, and when you’re talking about what is offensive with regards to women, this is not your lived experience and for subjective things like this, lived experience is pretty much the gold standard. I’m sure you mean well, but it is just a bit presumptuous.
Let’s stop ignoring the homophobic point. If Jason has an issue with homosexuality, why should we even consider anything else he has to say about Grothe? Clearly, we can’t address the rest until we address the homophobia.
Oh, steveschulers wants you to know that I stopped publishing his posts because I’m squelching dissent. Never mind that the points he was making: “you’re being mean and shouldn’t use swears” — are pretty much already covered.
I’m going to go have a nice evening now. Chat amongst yourselves!
Gabby, perhaps you’d like to tell us where you would think Jason had a point about what’s going on if you didn’t think, even after reading this post, that he is homophobic?
Gabby: you’re too late. The remark was addressed, explained to Jason, he apologized, and fixed the remark. See the actual OP you’re commenting on, sheesh.
Now if DJ could only do as much…
I see this…
“Here’s the thing: that post COULD be read as homophobic”
Emphasis as if to suggest there is any other way to read this bigoted statement, followed by the suggestion that other ‘gays’ agreeing with him makes it Okely Dokely in a classic notpology that blames the person calling him out rather than taking the responsibility for having posted it. Are you going to pretend you’d accept that if it came from someone who who disagreed with you?
Bullshit. Hypocritical bullshit.
Let’s not play “Where were you when…”. I assure you I have a fuckton of unanswered questions on that score myself, for you and others.
Anyone who thinks this issue is black and white, and that one side is morally superior and the other side a bunch of “idiots” should be stripped of the right to call herself a skeptic. And yes, that goes for *everyone* in this ridiculous fucking situation.
Joey, what exactly is shades of gray about saying women talking about being harassed are engaging in “locker room banter” about their “sexual exploits”? Seriously.
Gabby, you still haven’t answered my question. Where would you consider agreeing with Jason if you weren’t convinced he was homophobic?
Obviously, it’s much more offensive that Jason used the term “vaginas’ owners” when referring to vaginas and their owners than it is that DJ said that women discussing harassment were engaging in mean-spirited locker room banter about their sexual exploits. Just becuase, that’s why.
Please, tell me what is right about the side saying for women to shut up, and tells them their own experiences are just rumors designed to get themselves blog hits and that everything they are saying is just locker room banter to absolve themselves from skeezy sex.