Do I Get to Dress Like the Women on Matt Taylor’s Shirt at Work Now?

The Matt Taylor ShirtGate / ShirtStorm issue has been covered to death. As a supporter of women in STEM who is not herself a graduate of a STEM program, I thought I’d be okay with limiting my participation in conversations around it to signal-boosting others’ takes on it.

Kiran Opal discusses why people’s reactions to Matt Taylor’s apology were so terrible. Gretchen Koch explains with whom exactly she is angry. Phil Plait makes a case for why, although the conversation has centered around a shirt, it isn’t just about a shirt.  Greta Christina took on the issue from her unique perspective as a pornographer.

Many people on Twitter and other social media platforms have brought up the fact that women and people perceived to be female face constant criticism for their clothing choices both within and outside of the workplace.

This is where my outrage as a person perceived to be female comes in.

Until the day comes where women and women-perceived people’s clothing choices are not policed to death, especially in the workplace, I am entirely unsympathetic towards Matt Taylor’s choice to express his sexual preferences via his clothing choices at work.

Women and people seen as women have to dress along a very precarious line between “too frumpy” and “too sexy”, a line which is hardly if ever clear despite the billions of drops of ink and infinite number of pixels spilled over the matter. Read any article about a woman being shamed and harassed, given ultimatums, or getting fired over her clothing choices, and the comments and responses will generally be along the lines of “But why didn’t she just wear more professional clothes / cover up more?”

The appearance-policing gets worse for certain types of women. Women with larger busts can’t even cover them up with turtlenecks without being told that they look too sexually appealing for work. Women of color are told that their natural hair (as in the hair that grows from their heads) is “too political” to be professional. A sexy picture or porn-performer history, even if discovered well outside the context of work or from the distant past, can lead to a woman being fired.

Meanwhile, not being sexy enough means a lowered income (since fat women earn less than thin women) and complaining about bikini pics displayed at the actual the workplace can lead to termination of employment.

And that’s exactly the problem. Why is it okay to portray scantily-clad women in a place of employment, the exact same space where women are subjected to often downright draconian restrictions on their clothing choices?

I quote Violet Rose.

It is illegal for women to go topless in most cities, yet you can buy a magazine of a woman without her top on at any 7-Eleven store. So, you can sell breasts, but you cannot wear breasts, in America.

The world is coming out in force to cry “shaming!” in defense of a man who wore a shirt covered in images of women in sexy outfits to work. I repeat: A man can wear a shirt to work depicting women wearing clothes that actual women at his workplace can’t dream of wearing in public ever, even outside of the workplace, lest they be chastised and possibly fired.

Fuck. That. Noise.

And fuck yes to a better shirt for promoting female participation in STEM.

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Do I Get to Dress Like the Women on Matt Taylor’s Shirt at Work Now?
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148 thoughts on “Do I Get to Dress Like the Women on Matt Taylor’s Shirt at Work Now?

  1. 1

    Until the day comes where women and women-perceived people’s clothing choices are not policed to death, especially in the workplace, I am entirely unsympathetic towards Matt Taylor’s choice to express his sexual preferences via his clothing choices at work.

    I have been discriminated against, even denied employment because I chose not to shave my beard and that was in construction work and other work where I wasn’t working with the public. It’s not just women in the workplace that have the uptight Taliban types telling them what to wear. Are you saying you don’t care if men are subject to unfair rules because women are too.
    If I were to say I’m unsympathetic to women getting treated unfairly because men are treated unfairly too wouldn’t you think I was being petty?
    As a feminist I’m shocked by the ridiculously prudish nonsense that is coming out because of Shirtstorm. Really, treating women as weak willed fainting machines that can’t handle looking at some cartoonish depictions of James Bond girls on a shirt is an insult to real women and damages the credibility of the feminist movement.

      1. You are one stupid person. Women don’t havo to necessarily dress between the line of frumpy and too sexy. Nobody’s making you dress like that. Man are also subject to certain restrictions in the workplace. I bet you don’t know the feeling of being told “we won’t hire you because you don’t meet our standards of appearance or personal image (long hair, beard, clothes, etc.)”.
        You’re just another feminist, running your mouth with no idea of the world around you.

      1. I seriously do not understand this. WHY does it matter? The man landed a piece of metal onto a comet for **** sake! To me, this sounds as people who prefer to get mad at somebody, rather than recognising that the man accomplished something that we will never be able to do, or understand. Pure and simple envy, manipulated to sell more newspapers or get more clicks on some ridicolous blog.

        1. I’m actually surprised that so many people are clicking on this post, since some man’s shirt is hardly the focus if the vast and epic majority of my writing. You’re one of them. What made you click on this instead of one of the many other posts I’ve written on various other subjects?

        2. No, “the man” didn’t accomplish landing a probe on a commet
          This is not “Atlas Shrugged, the sequel”. A huge team worked hard for years. Dr. Taylor was one of them. He had the privilege to represent that team on TV. Really, if your understanding of everything is as naive as your understanding of the Philae misson you should probably just get away from the keyboard.

    1. 1.3

      Really, treating women as weak willed fainting machines that can’t handle looking at some cartoonish depictions of James Bond girls on a shirt is an insult to real women and damages the credibility of the feminist movement.

      (bolding mine)
      Okay, so, what exactly is thee difference between ‘women’ and ‘real women’? Are the ones who take umbrage at their male co-worker’s sexist wardrobe choice not real? Or are they simply too offensive for you to handle without a fainting couch? Of course women can handle it, they did, they have, they will, and hopefully they will be able to call it out as they have. Because it was inappropriate.

    2. 1.4

      Oh…FFS.
      You think a woman with a beard would have been treated the same or worse, abear?

      You don’t wear a bra to work. you think I could get away with that?

      Nevermind, I don’t really care what you think. I doubt very much that you actually do.

      1. Hai Jackie; I think a woman with a beard would have been treated worse, and that would have been unfair. Although it would have been more unfair than my mistreatment, it doesn’t cancel out the fact that I was mistreated.
        I have been self-employed for many years and have had the right to choose whether or not I wear a bra, however there was a time that if I wore a bra to work I likely would have been harassed and mistreated. If you worked for me I wouldn’t care whether you wore a bra or not. If another of my employees complained about you I would tell them it didn’t contravene the dress code and mind your own business. If a customer complained I would suggest they look the other way if they were offended and that breasts are a natural feature of women and some other female animals.
        The same way if I had some snowflake complain about my one of my employees that had some rather tame cartoons on their bowling shirt, that a woman artist friend of his made for him for his birthday.

  2. 2

    You are making an excellent point here, Heina.
    And to anyone with designs on “defending” Dr. Taylor: He doesn’t need defending. He’s a big boy, he realized
    that he fucked up, he took responsibility for his mistake and apologized.
    He isn’t the victim you are trying to paint him as. He’s most likely offended and embarrassed by your and feeble rationalizations and your vile tactics.

    1. 2.1

      Why should he apologize? Please explain it to me. He works in an environment where that shirt is not perceived as offensive. I work in a similar place, and I can tell you we just don´t give a *. If you care so much about clothing, you should reassess your priorities.

  3. 3

    I could find plenty of quotes for you to the effect of “this is the sort of thing that prevents my daughter from going into STEM”. Another line of nonsense is that the shirt created a hostile work environment.
    Also, you wrote that women’s choice of clothing was unfairly policed. I agree with you and added that there is unfair policing of men’s dress too. That was your statement that I was quoting.
    I didn’t make anything up here, you apparently misunderstood my point.

        1. I did not see her* express a lack of sympathy for the person Matt Taylor, I saw expressed a lack of sympathy for his _choice to wear the shirt_.

          *Heina, I think you indicated once that there’s a different pronoun that applies to you? I forgot what it was, my apologies. Or I’m wrong to think I remember this at all, in which case also my apologies.

    1. 3.2

      “this is the sort of thing that prevents my daughter from going into STEM”

      The idea when people say that isn’t that their daughter is weak-willed, the idea is that their daughter, quite sensibly, would prefer to be in a place where there are not overt signals that she won’t be taken seriously.

    2. 3.3

      Yes, ashirt like that creates a hostile work environment. Go to Stephanie Zvan’s blog and read up on that. Also “that sort of thing” =/= this one shirt. People are pointing out that this a constant pattern in STEM that in time takes its toll of girls and women who are interested in STEM and makes them leave. That’s actually not rocket science but sociology.
      Hmm, maybe if I make it all about the guys you will understand…
      Have you ever felt left out of a conversation because 5 women were talking about stereotypically female things? Or annoyed when they make comments along the line that men are basically shit at most things except taking out the trash?
      If yes, use the thing called empathy. Add a bit of power difference (all those women are superior in the workplace than you and if you say “you know, I disagree with that) and imagine the threat of sexual assault hanging in the air and then ask yourself if you’d like to be there 8-10 hours a day if you have other alternatives.
      Of course, the real world isn’t like that, there are few men who ever find themselves in a position like that and even if they are in such an evironment, the world outside of that specific place still gives them privilege, but maybe it’s a starting point that could help you understand those things if you were actually interested in doing so.
      Oh, and read up on “stereotype threat”

  4. 4

    resident alien: Which vile tactics are you referring to?
    Do you mean vicious attacks on Taylor’s character by the phony post-modernist “social justice” brigade that have been plastered all over the internet? If so I agree with you, that crowd are as self righteous and prudish as the worst of the Christian Puritan types and have the same bullying behavior.

  5. 5

    I had a tough time feeling the least bit sorry for Matt Taylor. Yes, you get some media attention and people end up talking about your clothes. That’s pretty typical for most women.

    On policing, the amount of rules can be absurd, where a a rule exists which forbids open-toed shoes but where a committee has to meet to decide if peep-toes are okay, the exact length of an acceptable skirt, rules on jewelry and makeup (makeup being at times almost required, but has to be done a particular way). Outside of safety issues most of these seem purely busy-body type nonsense.

    Now, I work in the tech field and I also have a background in cognitive and social psychology. Women are not necessarily consciously going to freak out over a particular shirt, or make a career decision based on it, but these things do end up having an impact on whether a space is perceived as welcoming or not. Human beings do NOT sit down and make purely rational choices about what to do, this is impossible. It’s been pretty well shown not to be the case. Casual sexism is going to have an impact even if no one instance ever makes any women decided based on it along that she’s not interesting in being in STEM field. If the engineering building has only one women’s restroom, nobody is going to say ‘this means engineering is not for me’ but it’s likely to have an impact.

  6. 6

    @abear : Dr. Taylor did not suffer vicious attacks on his character. It’s not about waht he IS, it’s about what he DID.
    He had his actions criticized. He’ll live. He will simply refrain from dressing up as a low-rate German pimp the next time he publicly represents so important and amazing a project.
    By vile tactics I mean the vile tactics many of his wannabe “defenders” (whose defense he neither wants nor needs) chose to employ : verbal abuse, harrassment, rape threats death threats, doxxing, name-calling and generally mis-representing the points we are making. Plus arguing in bad faith and making it all about themselves, which is what you are doing.
    The “hostile work environment” thing has been explained at length.
    The “microaggression” thing has been explained at length.
    The “sexuality =/= sexual objectification” thing has been explained at length.
    Every fucking angle of this thing has been explained at length and we cannot be blamed for people sticking their fingers in their ears going lalala I’m not listening.
    Dr. Taylor is nobody’s victim. He is a brilliant scientist who made a rather embarrassing public error in judgement, influenced by privilege and internalized misogyny (which we all have). He understood our point. Why won’t you?
    It’s not exactly rocket science, you know…

  7. 7

    “Women with larger busts can’t even cover them up with turtlenecks without being told that they look too sexually appealing for work.”
    Yeah, that story was proven to be a fraud pumped up by Gloria Allred who skipped town after no one showed up to her third press conference about it. That citibanker’s previous claim to fame was haranguing a TV plastic surgeon for not agreeing to replace her DD implants with F implants. Her treasure trove of documents that were going to prove her case only revealed that she is an awful person who harassed women at work for being “ugly, frumpy, or plain”, and made overtures toward bosses and clients in an attempt to “land a rich one”.

    1. 7.1

      My apologies for not looking up a debunking. That said, I saw lots of people saying “oh yeah, a turtleneck emphasizes big boobs” so I still feel like there’s a sense of futility when you are larger-busted, where nothing you wear is considered “modest” enough.

  8. 8

    I don’t condone verbal abuse, harassment, rape or death threats, doxxing, name calling and misrepresentation.
    Apparently you are so sensitive that you didn’t like his shirt so you decide to misrepresent him as a “low rate German pimp”.
    Talk about vile, abusive, misrepresentation. At least it’s not microaggression, it’s full blown aggression!
    What about his beard and his tattoos? Do they agree with your sensitive fashion choices or are you going to say he looks like a rapist now? Talk about making it about me? You and your ilk want to police what other people wear, not me.
    This whole thing is petty. There are real and important problems with sexism and bullying in the work place and this whole affair trivializes the whole matter and takes away from the real legitimate points out there.
    He apologized because he was bullied into it by a bunch of phonies peddling cheap outrage. It is a tragedy that the achievement that he and his team (which by the way also consisted of women) was sullied by this nonsense.

      1. Heina, absolutely. I think most dress codes are BS. You should be able to wear what you want to, woman or man and not have to take any flak from your employer or fellow workers.
        If you happen to work at a job that has a strict dress code (apparently not the case with Taylor) and violated that code and got fired or heavily criticized you would still get my sympathy at least. And I would be happy to send your employer an email critique of his treatment of you. If you were given static for dressing as you like at a workplace that didn’t have a dress code I would send an adamant email.
        I personally didn’t see anything indecent or offensive about the clothing the cartoon women were wearing on Taylor’s shirt and if there were I would be free to look the other way.

        1. So you would defend a woman choosing to wear leather/PVC lingerie to work? You would come to her adamant defense and argue with people you don’t know about it for prolonged periods on blog comments?

          Good to know.

          Given that women are fired and chastised every day for wearing far more clothing than the women on his shirt are wearing, and I have linked extensively to cases where that happened, I trust you will be able to provide links to where you have gone to bat for them as insistently as you have here.

          1. I’ve never seen a blog post or even an article on women getting fired for sexy attire on a venue that I comment on, at least on FTB, but I certainly would jump to her defense if I did. If you would send me links to some of those articles I would be happy to send supportive comments for the aggrieved women.
            Many years ago I went to school and the rather uptight prissy school board director tried to implement a dress code because he was concerned that the young women were unduly distracting the boys, among other things. I loudly protested the move and was ADAMANT about it. Years later I heard this creep had abused his daughter.
            Sorry, no links to prove this, it happened before the PC was invented by several decades.

  9. 9

    @ abear: For Fuck’s sake! I didn’t call him a Low-rate German pimp, I said he dressed up as one. I live in Germany.I know what pimps dress like over here. Nobody criticized his beard or his tattoos,which I incedently find quite fetching.
    The issue was the shirt, and not because of it’s loud colours,but because it is decorated with pictures of pornified women.
    I didn’t say you were making death threats etc.,I said many of Dr.Taylor’s wannabe defenders did.
    If it’s not about you, don’t make it about you. And do learn to read.
    You are making shit up.
    You are moving the goalposts.
    You are arguing in bad faith.
    You aren’t engaging in an honest debate.
    So these are the last words I am wasting on you.

    1. 9.1

      Pornified women? There were no bare breasts, buttocks, genitals, or even midriffs exposed. They were wielding guns in a kitschy, cartoonish James Bond type depiction.
      Do women in Germany wear burkas year round? You would be really offended if you came here, particularly in summertime. Women here frequently wear short skirts, shorts, tights. I suppose that there are people here that think somewhat revealing clothing is indecent or “pornified” but I can’t recall hearing many complaints. I would imagine that if they did they would likely get laughed at.
      You didn’t mind his tats or beard but think that silly shirt made him look like a sleazy criminal? Kind of a vile insult.
      If someone said you dressed like a child molester that wouldn’t bother you?
      A sure sign you don’t have confidence in your own argument- you have to call me illiterate and 4 different types of liar and then run away.

      1. It’s always telling when men can’t see the difference between “woman dressing in a particular way to express themselves” and “men wearing images of pin-up women on their shirts to express themselves” It’s actually as if they couldn’t see the difference between somebody being a subject and an object…

        1. Giliell are you lecturing the artist that made the shirt what is sexist or not? She is a woman you know, and gave the shirt to him as a gift. Is every artist that shows an attractive person or views their art as incapable of understanding the difference between a subject and an object?

          1. The friend didn’t draw the women. They were already on the fabric. She bought the fabric and made a shirt out of it.

            Also, I’m pretty sure you misunderstood what Giliell was saying. A woman expressing herself with her own clothing is a subject. The fictional women dressed and posed in a manner being used by someone else to express themselves are objects. In your post you compared women expressing themselves (the ones there that “frequently wear short skirts, shorts, tights”) with women being used by others (the ones on the shirt) to express themselves. Which is why when Giliell said you couldn’t see “the difference between somebody being a subject and an object…”

      2. Pornified women? There were no bare breasts, buttocks, genitals, or even midriffs exposed. They were wielding guns in a kitschy, cartoonish James Bond type depiction.

        It’s not just the clothes, it’s the poses, too. Like the one with her legs spread wide. Or the classic butt-boob contortion. And I’m sure lots of superspy women choose to go into gun fights in tight black corsets while being sure to prominently display their butts. I certainly did in my espionage days.

        Do women in Germany wear burkas year round? You would be really offended if you came here, particularly in summertime. Women here frequently wear short skirts, shorts, tights. I suppose that there are people here that think somewhat revealing clothing is indecent or “pornified” but I can’t recall hearing many complaints. I would imagine that if they did they would likely get laughed at.

        You seem to have a problem not recognizing the difference between a woman choosing to wear something, and when someone chooses what women wear in some kind of display. I’m presuming the women wearing light clothing in summer are doing it by their own choice and people aren’t forcing them. The women on the shirt were drawn in those clothes and poses by choice of the artist. And you act like because the private parts of the women on the shirt are covered, they’re not sexualized. The poses and situation matter.

        You didn’t mind his tats or beard but think that silly shirt made him look like a sleazy criminal? Kind of a vile insult.
        If someone said you dressed like a child molester that wouldn’t bother you?

        It would depend on what I was wearing, really.

  10. 10

    abear, I understand from your comments that you are not a woman working in STEM. Yet, you feel that you have the right to tell us (women working in STEM) what contributes to a hostile work environment and what the real workplace issues are for us. And what exactly is an insult to real women (so I guess, if I am not insulted, I am not a real woman). Why? Why are you more of an expert in this issue than I am?

    1. 10.1

      My life partner, now retired, worked in STEM fields her entire life. She laughed at the furore about the shirt.
      Are you telling her she isn’t a real woman and needs to be offended? I assure she is a real woman and she isn’t at all insulted by the shirt. I also know other women that are straight up real woman feminists and they would agree.
      My opinion has been formed by the experts- women that have worked in this field that I know and respect. I am not the expert.

  11. 12

    abel:

    Are you telling her she isn’t a real woman and needs to be offended? I assure she is a real woman and she isn’t at all insulted by the shirt.

    I am not in the business of telling other women what they should think. You, however, posted, in your very first post above:

    Really, treating women as weak willed fainting machines that can’t handle looking at some cartoonish depictions of James Bond girls on a shirt is an insult to real women and damages the credibility of the feminist movement.

    I hope you can see how the above can be taken as an insult to women who do not agree with your point of view.

    My opinion has been formed by the experts- women that have worked in this field that I know and respect.

    There are many women (and man, of course, but let’s focus on the women for now) working in STEM that have explained exactly why they had a problem with that shirt (you can find a collection of links here . Don’t you think their opinions should also be taken into account?

    1. 12.1

      There are things that some men and yes some women say that offend me. There are behaviors from different people that I find offensive. Sometimes I see people that wear clothing or body enhancements, or just generally have an unpleasant appearance. I look away.
      Are you proposing we should start a vote to see who finds their neighbors tastes offensive opinions taken into account, and how would you have it taken into account? Would they be fined? Jailed?
      What if I’m really sensitive and I don’t like your taste in clothing?
      You should just tell me to mind my own business? Right?

      1. Just know that we all know you’re lying about being a feminist. Even people who aren’t calling you out on it know that you’re lying. You’re not winning any minds here with your childish bullshit.

  12. 14

    abear–FIrst of all, I was willing to give you the benefit of the doubt before “tut-tut.” Beyond that, whatever you are or believe, you’re using the classic rhetoric of anti-feminists. DIsapproval does not equate to fines or jail time. Just as people saying on Twitter that the shirt in question is objectionable is classic free speech. That shirt, in my opinion, was tasteless and had no place in that context. You said that the shirt did not constitute a hostile workplace–and this is quite correct, because it is exceedingly rare for any single event or detail to alone do so. Could that shirt be part of a hostile workplace suit? Without a doubt. That is simply objective fact. I would invite you to have a look at Oncale v. Sundowner Offshore Services, Inc. 523 U.S. 75 (1998). The text is available here: https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/523/75/case.html Mr. Taylor should not be arrested or fined. For what it’s worth, I think his apology was genuine. But if you tell me I shouldn’t express my opinion, you’re a censorious jerk who I will ignore in due course. End of story.

    1. 14.1

      Hulegu: What is it with tut-tut? Is that classic anti-feminist rhetoric?
      By the way, I read the link you provided and there is zero in it about shirts or offensive fashion choices. The meat of the matter appears to be this:

      He was employed as a roustabout on an eight-man crew which included respondents John Lyons, Danny Pippen, and Brandon Johnson. Lyons, the crane operator, and Pippen, the driller, had supervisory authority, App. 41, 77, 43. On several occasions, Oncale was forcibly subjected to sex-related, humiliating actions against him by Lyons, Pippen, and Johnson in the presence of the rest of the crew. Pippen and Lyons also physically assaulted Oncale in a sexual manner, and Lyons threatened him with rape.

      For anybody not bothering to read the link you provided it would seem you provided evidence but they would be mislead. That court ruling had nothing to do with shirtstorm; nowhere are shirts or any article of clothing mentioned.
      You are entitled to your opinion, even if it isn’t related to the topic at hand. End of end of story.

  13. 15

    I know. I am an honest person, and I do not believe that you are an honest person. There’s disagreeing, and there there’s just straight up lying about what feminism is and what it means, which is what you are doing. In my estimation. No honest misunderstanding could result in a version of feminism which so closely resembles that version propagated by feminism’s most virulent, unreasoning opponents, and over such a long period of time, in the face of so many corrections. I am accusing you of being disingenuous. I think you are a liar.

    1. 16.1

      Sally: You seem to be able to throw the liar, liar pants on fire method of debate but never have a specific quote to back it up. If you really are an honest person maybe you wouldn’t throw around slurs without providing evidence.
      Where did I say anything about feminism that distorts its’ “true” meaning. How about a quote?
      Maybe you are an anti-feminist liar Sally! For all we know you are an undercover MRA dudebro that pretends to be a feminist to discredit the movement. You do say a lot of silly things and you proudly admit you are strange.
      See how easy it is to make accusations about people without providing proof, but of course you already know how to do that.:P

      1. Where did I say anything about feminism that distorts its’ “true” meaning. How about a quote?

        Okey-doke.

        Here’s one where you dishonestly misrepresent feminists concerned about workplace microaggressions in STEM fields as being “mean”, “vicious”, “self righteous” and “prudish” and engaging in “bullying” behavior, which sounds like nothing so much as an extended ad hominem against people who disagree with you. You also claim “vicious attacks” were made on Taylor’s character without providing evidence.

        Which vile tactics are you referring to?
        Do you mean vicious attacks on Taylor’s character by the phony post-modernist “social justice” brigade that have been plastered all over the internet? If so I agree with you, that crowd are as self righteous and prudish as the worst of the Christian Puritan types and have the same bullying behavior.

        Here’s one where you dishonestly twist feminist objections to art that objectifies women into a general prudishness, once again discarding the actual issues and arguments in favor of a strawman you can use to discredit those who disagree with you. Then you follow this with a “Dear Muslima”, and repeat your accusation of bullying against Taylor (again, no evidence) and suggest (again, without evidence) that his apology was not sincere, and go on to suggest that his critics were similarly insincere in their complaints. Again, no evidence, just a vague character smear.

        What about his beard and his tattoos? Do they agree with your sensitive fashion choices or are you going to say he looks like a rapist now? Talk about making it about me? You and your ilk want to police what other people wear, not me.
        This whole thing is petty. There are real and important problems with sexism and bullying in the work place and this whole affair trivializes the whole matter and takes away from the real legitimate points out there.
        He apologized because he was bullied into it by a bunch of phonies peddling cheap outrage.

        Here’s you dishonestly conflating women choosing to wear sexy clothing with women being portrayed as sex objects:

        You would be really offended if you came here, particularly in summertime. Women here frequently wear short skirts, shorts, tights. I suppose that there are people here that think somewhat revealing clothing is indecent or “pornified” but I can’t recall hearing many complaints.

        Here you are dishonestly suggesting that someone is questioning the right of women to not be offended by the shirt, when, in actuality, that is the exact opposite of what’s happening. Bonus points for straight-up admitting that the only women whose opinions you care about (the “experts”) are those you feel have earned your respect (hint: if someone is really a feminist, their concern for women’s issues doesn’t need to earned).

        Are you telling her she isn’t a real woman and needs to be offended? I assure she is a real woman and she isn’t at all insulted by the shirt. I also know other women that are straight up real woman feminists and they would agree.
        My opinion has been formed by the experts- women that have worked in this field that I know and respect.

        Here you are again conflating objections to the shirt with general prudishness and bossiness in other contexts. You also ignore the “workplace” element of the issue, dishonestly misrepresenting the objections to the shirt:

        Are you proposing we should start a vote to see who finds their neighbors tastes offensive opinions taken into account, and how would you have it taken into account? Would they be fined? Jailed?
        What if I’m really sensitive and I don’t like your taste in clothing?
        You should just tell me to mind my own business? Right?

        Here’s you dishonestly distorting the issue into an absurd caricature:

        You’d better not wear a shirt with an a little cartoon alligator on it because that is the same thing as bringing an alligator into work and it attacking people!

        Here you are conflating religious conservatives who object to women dressing and acting as they wish with with feminists who believe that certain things are inappropriate or disrespectful in the workplace.
        Bonus points for the bizarre suggestion that condescendingly dismissing (and lying about) the concerns of women is more feminist than listening to and respecting women.
        Bonus bonus points for the obvious lie about being a “liberal feminist”, paired with the dishonest and unfounded suggestion that anyone who disagrees with you on this issue is a “dingbat”. And is also unwittingly helping the conservative anti-feminists. Because people who disagree with you are just SO STUPID they don’t know what they’re doing. Right? Because why engage with the debate honestly when you can just handwave it away by calling everyone who disagrees with you dumb?

        I agree with Heina that women are unfairly criticized for their choice in clothing and 9 times out of 10 it is an uptight prudish Jerry Falwell type that is doing the complaining. That is wrong when right wingers do it against women and it is wrong when “left” wingers do it against men.
        I’m not the one treating women like weak willed fainting machines, it is the internet outrage machine pseudo liberals that are making that claim. I have more respect for women than that.
        I happen to be a liberal feminist that is disappointed that a bunch of dingbats are providing ammunition for rightwing woman haters to smear the feminist movement.

        Gay and Plait are phony feminists in my opinion. You can quote me on it.

        Character assassination with no evidence (and precious little point).

        That’s everything I could find in this thread. Do you have another thread you want me to review for you?

        1. disingenuous deity: You took a bunch of opinions I gave and then quoted, them then called me a liar. Are you saying those aren’t my opinions. Is that what you always do when you are losing a debate, stoop to the childish liar, liar pants on fire argument?
          Do you think my opinion that Gay and Plait are phony feminists is character assassination? I explained the evidence that allowed to form that opinion. There are photographs of Gay and Plait obviously enjoying themselves at a raunchy public event called a “Pimps and Ho’s” themed party. I didn’t make the name of it up. Do go and look at the pictures of the costumes and the behavior of the people at the event. They may be more difficult to find now, since Plait has trashed Taylor on his blog I understand he has asked these pictures be removed from the internet. Apparently he is embarrassed by being such a hypocrite. If Gay and Plait were OK with that raunchy party it is phony of them to condemn Taylor for wearing that shirt to the celebration the team were holding for the lander reaching the comet.
          Are you so dense you can’t see how phony and hypocritical that is?
          You can google my nym and quote me all you want, but please do try an honest portrayal of what I say.

  14. 17

    abear, imagine, if you will, that you have just moved in to a nice, upscale neighborhood. The neighborhood everyone has been telling you that you need to get into to have the best life.

    Two weeks later, your TV is stolen by your next door neighbor. They even leave a path from your broken window to their front door. You can see him watching your TV in their living room. Surely, you say, in such a nice neighborhood the police will handle this. Then the detective shows up. He takes your statement, takes a look around, then says “sorry, not enough information to go on”.

    “What?” You say, “Look at these footprints!”

    The detective then proceeds to show you each individual footprint. Each time he tells you that this individual footprint means nothing by itself.

    “What about all those other footprints?”

    “What happened in the past isn’t relevant.”

    “What about the footprints ahead?”

    “I haven’t looked at those yet.”

    “What about the fact that he’s watching my TV right now?”

    “That’s a fairly common model of TV. You can’t go accusing a man over a common TV!”

    “Check the serial number! I have it registered!”

    “I can’t invade a man’s home just on your say so!”

    Frustrated, you give up, because you have insurance and you hope that this would be a one time thing. But it happens again. Your microwave, your stereo, even your refrigerator. Each time you get the same response from the detective.

    Finally, your neighbor steals your custom computer, built completely from parts ordered from multiple sources. The detective grudgingly admits that you have some evidence and arrests the neighbor. You hope that this will be the end of the nonsense because you really can’t afford more increases in your insurance rates.

    Until the neighbor on the other side starts stealing your stuff. With a cry of frustration, you decide to move out. As the movers start working, you pick up the day’s paper and find it full of editorials talking about how you are such a wimp for moving out after one “alleged” burglary.

  15. 18

    Reading articles/blogs such as these from people like you are the reason NORMAL feminists and women in general struggle so hard to be heard. It’s a fucking shirt, and it’s been blown out of proportions.

    If women are supposed to be free to wear what they want, dress as they want, then men should too. Is that not the whole idea of feminism to be EQUAL!?

    Un fucking believable. People like you are the reason it’s a sad day to be human, when a scientist has to spend more time answering questions about his SHIRT than some of the greatest accomplishment in space during our lifetime.

    So fucking stupid. It’s fine that you have a shitty opinion, just stop being so loud and noisy about it, it’s fucking unbearable.

    1. 18.1

      you are the real monsters you have marked a man .

      That’s rather nutsy. “Marked”? What is this, an Old West internet and you’re going to call us out for a showdown at noon? He wasn’t “marked”. People complained, he apologized. End of story. get the fuck over it.

      who may have wore something that was not right for the work place.

      Please, link me to all the office attire stores that sell sexy gun toting female cartoons in lingerie as part of the professional decor for the working man.
      Then come back when you can’t find any and tell me what “may or may not be right for the workplace”.

      but now you have taken the mans accomplishments away

      He’s responsible for his own actions. That’s like saying;

      “If you hadn’t been there for me to mug I would never have ended up in jail! This is all your fault!”

      That’s just stupid. Besides, I’m predicting that he handled this incident so well that he’s helped his career, not hindered it.

      now if you would like to grow up and bring something actually worth noting to the table…

      Yes. Please grow up and bring something to the table that is worthwhile. Because so far your entire response has been that of the pewling, petulant little boy/ girl who is having a tantrum because he can’t get his way.

      If you came into my office spouting this crap after an incident I’d be tempted, whether you were right or wrong, to fire you on the spot for your lack of maturity.

    2. 18.2

      If women are supposed to be free to wear what they want, dress as they want, then men should too. Is that not the whole idea of feminism to be EQUAL!?

      Women are not free to wear what they want. That’s the hypocrisy of defending the shirt: men have the world rise to defend their clothing choices while every day, women lose their jobs over clothing.

      So fucking stupid. It’s fine that you have a shitty opinion, just stop being so loud and noisy about it, it’s fucking unbearable.

      You’re free to not read my blog, you know. Just click the little “x” at the top right or left corner of your screen and back away.

  16. 19

    Ok to all you fem’s out there, you are the real monsters you have marked a man who may have wore something that was not right for the work place but now you have taken the mans accomplishments away from him and betrayed him as some women hater who does not care about your rights and maybe you should try get a better picture before you throw your stone of judgment at this poor man. He is only human and boy do we make mistakes but we pass them and become stronger but this is were you take something and turn it to your whim so that you can talk about all you poor problems you have as a women in a mans world?. now if you would like to grow up and bring something actually worth noting to the table i would love to read it over and see your point but please be mindful about next time you chose to paint a picture of something that is not even there. sincerely the world saying it how it is.

    1. 19.1

      you have marked a man who may have wore something that was not right for the work place

      I have “marked” him how, exactly?

      now you have taken the mans accomplishments away from him and betrayed him as some women hater who does not care about your rights

      I have not taken away anyone’s accomplishments. No one can. Furthermore, I never said he hated women and doesn’t care about our rights. Please point out where I said so and I will happily clarify the point.

      maybe you should try get a better picture before you throw your stone of judgment at this poor man.

      I’m not judging him. I’m talking about discriminatory policies on clothing in the workplace, not his character.

      now if you would like to grow up and bring something actually worth noting to the table i would love to read it over and see your point

      I sincerely doubt that, since you are claiming that I said things that I didn’t say at all.

      sincerely the world saying it how it is.

      Who elected you to speak for the entire world? I don’t remember voting in that election since I am a part of the world. Unless you think that women aren’t part of the world? Is that what it is?

  17. 20

    As a feminist I’m shocked by the ridiculously prudish nonsense that is coming out because of Shirtstorm.

    So you’re saying it is okay for women to wear leather bikinis and lingere in the workplace? You’re saying that it would have been okay for Matt Tyler to appear on national TV actually wearing one of the outfits depicted on the shirt?

    I think you really need to reexamine your definition of “prudish”.

    Really, treating women as weak willed fainting machines…

    I’ve noticed an immediate rush towards the strawman that involves portraying women as weak when they object to well… really anything as of late.

    You do realize that just because someone objects to something, doesn’t like it, is offended by i (etc) does not automatically mean they are “weak”.

    That assumption was created by the right wing as a counter to liberal thinking. The MRAs use it against feminists.

    1. 20.1

      Philip: You’d better not wear a shirt with an a little cartoon alligator on it because that is the same thing as bringing an alligator into work and it attacking people! Talk about a ridiculous argument.
      I could care less what people wear to work. I guess if you are a cop you should wear a uniform and of course her are some limits, but my opinion is that Taylor’s shirt was not over the line.
      I agree with Heina that women are unfairly criticized for their choice in clothing and 9 times out of 10 it is an uptight prudish Jerry Falwell type that is doing the complaining. That is wrong when right wingers do it against women and it is wrong when “left” wingers do it against men.
      I’m not the one treating women like weak willed fainting machines, it is the internet outrage machine pseudo liberals that are making that claim. I have more respect for women than that.
      I happen to be a liberal feminist that is disappointed that a bunch of dingbats are providing ammunition for rightwing woman haters to smear the feminist movement.
      If you had the good fortune to work for me, although I expect you couldn’t make the grade, I would be fair enough to not fire you if you brought a complaint and were in the right. I would even give you good leeway in how you chose to dress.

  18. 21

    Really, treating women as weak willed fainting machines that can’t handle looking at some cartoonish depictions of James Bond girls on a shirt is an insult to real women

    And yet, apparently, treating Matt Taylor as a delicate flower who can’t handle a bit of criticism about the appropriateness of his attire in the workplace is not remotely insulting.

    1. 21.1

      And yet, apparently, treating Matt Taylor as a delicate flower who can’t handle a bit of criticism about the appropriateness of his attire in the workplace is not remotely insulting..

      Exactly

      Welcome to the world view of the ASJW (Anti Social Justice Warrior).

      Leave your logic at the door, hypocrisy gets you free admission!

  19. 22

    It’s a fucking shirt, and it’s been blown out of proportions…People like you are the reason it’s a sad day to be human,

    Thanks for telling us how important it is to not blow things out of proportion.

  20. 23

    You do realize that just because someone objects to something, doesn’t like it, is offended by i (etc) does not automatically mean they are “weak”.

    In my experience, someone who is “weak” will meekly accept things they find inappropriate or uncomfortable; it actually takes a bit of strength to voice an unpopular opinion (especially knowing how much blowback it will get from anti-feminists).

    It is a neat trick to be able to argue, with a straight face, that a woman who speaks up for herself is “weak” and a woman who just shuts up and accepts whatever the men want her to is “strong”.

    It’s an interesting quirk of the pseudo-feminism of anti-SJWs that they will claim to support and defend women, while criticizing women who don’t meet some vague unspoken standard of adequacy: “Oh, yes, I totally support REAL feminism…I just wish those stupid women would stop whining about all this FAKE feminism!”

    Pro Tip: if you think you support feminism, and find yourself on the opposite side of a debate from a bunch of women (and the same side as a bunch of dudes), maybe take a minute to rethink a few things.

      1. Well, I can line up lots of women that disagree with you about the shirt thing and some men that agree with you.
        I guess that makes you wrong. Right?

        The more literate readers will recognize that I said “…maybe take a minute to rethink a few things” and not “…you are obviously completely and unforgivably WRONG.” Sorry if that was too subtle for you.

        But, more importantly, women who disagree with me do so, as far as I can tell, mainly because the shirt does not offend them and so they believe that it can’t or shouldn’t offend anyone else.

        Men who agree with me do so because they have listened to and respected what women have said to them.

        I feel like the difference between these two scenarios is meaningful.

        My point was not that the “right” side of an issue can be determined by a vote. It was that, if feminism is important to you, you should think long and hard if your defense of feminism primarily involves defending men and telling women their concerns are invalid.

        If you are interested in my real point…

        Oh, I’m very interested in your “real” point. I just remain unconvinced that your “real” point is the one that you claim you are trying to make.

        1. The more literate readers will recognize that I said “…maybe take a minute to rethink a few things” and not “…you are obviously completely and unforgivably WRONG.” Sorry if that was too subtle for you.

          If you are not implying that I could be wrong by disagreeing with “a group of women” why would I need to rethink my position? Yes you put in weak qualifier, that’s just nitpicking.

          1. If you are not implying that I could be wrong by disagreeing with “a group of women” why would I need to rethink my position?

            Yes, I am implying that you COULD be wrong. Not that you definitely ARE wrong. Can you really not grasp the difference?

            So for you to say that some women agree with you and some men agree with me, and that “that makes [me] wrong” is overly simplistic to the point of being pathetically incorrect; indeed, I am very skeptical that someone who is both reasonably bright and honest would respond in such a way.

            The point is, if you find yourself dismissing the concerns of a bunch of women in order to defend a man, there is a strong chance you are not actually on the feminist side of the debate. Not a 100% chance. Maybe not even 90%. But enough that you should take a break and think about which side you’re on and why.

            Since you tried to be clever by flipping this around on me, let me be clear: I have thought about my position on this quite a bit. And I rethink it when I hear women disagree with me, as with any feminist issue. But all of the women defending the shirt, as I said, seem to feel that their ability to not be offended by the shirt makes it a non-issue. That seems to be your position as well. And I don’t think that “it doesn’t bother me so people who are bothered by it are WRONG” is quite as feminist a reaction as “the concerns of these women should be listened to and taken seriously”. Not to mention how they compare in terms of, say, respect or human decency.

            why would I need to rethink my position?

            Cool skepticism, bro.

  21. 24

    abear,

    I was only addressing your lack of sympathy for Taylor because women get treated unjustly too.

    What is he to be sympathized with for?

    And why should we talk about men’s beard job discrimination thing when the topic is something entirely different. Men aren’t being suppressed in STEM fields through a male power structure. Women are.

    This is like going up to a gay rights activist and saying, what about that straight guy who was beaten up by a gang of gay guys? You’d be completely missing the point of gay rights activism.

    1. 24.1

      Saad: Heina said she was unsympathetic toward Matt Taylor and would be until women were no longer being unfairly treated for their clothing choices.
      My point is that a fair attitude would be to be sympathetic to someone being unfairly treated regardless of their gender. I brought up the anecdote about my own workplace discrimination because of my beard to demonstrate that yes, even men suffer workplace discrimination.
      I don’t think you chose your analogy well; I didn’t complain that women discriminate against men therefore it’s alright to discriminate against women. If the gay activist said he wasn’t against violence against straights until gays were spared violence, wouldn’t you think it right to call him out on that (no pun intended)?

  22. 25

    Yes, in a science related stream, if you are talented enough to achieve something akin to the landing, you can even come naked. no one will look anywhere but in your eyes. I am a scientist myself, and trust me on that.

    However, for the majority of the people, the incredibleness of this science is irrelevant. It is irrelevant, that this is turly “just a shirt”, compared to the fundamental questiosn the mission is addressing and who he is in the mission. Had this been a politician, your argument scales up to his self. But this is the mission scientist of a mission in search of a fundamental truth. The scale of such an endeavor renders the design of the shirt _irrelevant_ .

    In order to look at the mission, you have to look UP, you know, where the sky is. When you look at the sky, you won’t see the shirt.

    Similarly, when you reach the sky, in your workplace, people wont look at your clothing either. They would look at the sky, unless they are a) idiots, b) attacking a soft target like you are.

    You wrote : “Until the day comes where women and women-perceived people’s clothing choices are not policed to death, especially in the workplace, I am entirely unsympathetic towards Matt Taylor’s choice to express his sexual preferences via his clothing choices at work.”
    So basically, you choose to express your unhappiness on your work setting ENTIRELY upon Dr. Taylor. You are taking your personal Vendetta upon a single soft target, instead of trying to achieve something of that scale, and excercising your right to dress as you wish regardless of the presence of other twats at your workplace. Thus, because there are twats in your workplace, you find it acceptable to attack Dr. Taylor.

    Way to go, young lady, way to go.

    1. 25.1

      So basically, you choose to express your unhappiness on your work setting ENTIRELY upon Dr. Taylor. You are taking your personal Vendetta upon a single soft target, instead of trying to achieve something of that scale, and excercising your right to dress as you wish regardless of the presence of other twats at your workplace. Thus, because there are twats in your workplace, you find it acceptable to attack Dr. Taylor.

      It’s not my work setting, actually. It’s most people’s work settings. As per the entire rest of the piece. Please let me know where I said that it was my personal issue rather than a societal one and I will be sure to clarify.

      And please point out where I “attacked” anyone so that I can correct it, since I didn’t intend to.
      Your kind feedback is appreciated.

  23. 26

    abear–I apologize, I should have contextualized better; when I referenced Oncale I meant it to stand for the proposition that hostile workplaces are not made up of singular events or criteria, but rather that many things need to contribute, by definition, and I think it obvious that the shirt at issue certainly could. And “tut-tut” simply strikes me as incredibly patronizing. That’s not objective fact, simply my opinion that you are a patronizing person.

    1. 26.1

      Hulegu: Thanks for you clarification, although we still disagree.
      Firstly, I don’t see that given the context of the workplace that his shirt was offensive- maybe a little silly, or garish but not offensive. I gather you do, we have to agree to disagree.
      Unless you have some sort of evidence that Taylor or others committed acts to make the workplace a toxic atmosphere than your analogy fails on that point too.
      From all reports I have seen his team which also includes female scientists in the top positions appeared to be in a happy, healthy work environment.
      As for me tut-tutting SallyStrange, she has a habit of making character accusations about me, (not that she will ever back it up with facts), so I occasionally respond in a less than serious manner.

  24. 27

    Matt Taylor was not criticized . HE WAS FORCED / BULLIED to apologize.

    I think we would all be interested to hear your explanation of: a) exactly what distinguishes the former from the latter, and b) upon what evidence you’ve judged this situation as a case of the latter rather than the former.

  25. 28

    Has Mr. Taylor indicated anywhere that he felt bullied? So far as I know, this all stems from a lot of masculine projection on to him and has vanishingly little, if anything, to do with the man himself. Again, to me, his apology seemed genuine, and I think he was sincerely upset that he’d been a distraction from the monumental feat achieved. If he has said something else on the record, as it were, I’d be grateful if someone could point me to it.

  26. 29

    Matt Taylor was not criticized . HE WAS FORCED / BULLIED to apologize…You are taking your personal Vendetta upon a single soft target…

    I don’t know Matt Taylor, but I kind of feel like if I were him, being characterized as a “soft target” and having the sincerity of my apology called into question would strike me as far more insulting than having my taste in clothing questioned.

    But, y’know, that’s just me.

    Also, do I need to point out again the irony of this “soft target” rhetoric in contrast to abear’s suggestion that objecting to the shirt implied that women are “weak willed fainting machines”? Or is this obvious to everyone except Sean at this point?

    1. 29.1

      discount deity wrote:

      Also, do I need to point out again the irony of this “soft target” rhetoric in contrast to abear’s suggestion that objecting to the shirt implied that women are “weak willed fainting machines”? Or is this obvious to everyone except Sean at this point?

      That mischaracterizes what I wrote. If you are interested in my real point, see my rebuttal to Philip Rose, above.

  27. 30

    That mischaracterizes what I wrote.

    What, that direct quote of your own words mischaracterized what you said? My bad.

    Here’s your quote in a more complete context:

    As a feminist I’m shocked by the ridiculously prudish nonsense that is coming out because of Shirtstorm. Really, treating women as weak willed fainting machines that can’t handle looking at some cartoonish depictions of James Bond girls on a shirt is an insult to real women and damages the credibility of the feminist movement.

    Now, it looks to me like what you’re saying here is that objecting to the shirt is equivalent to treating women as “weak willed fainting machines”. If you intended to say something else, I would welcome your clarification, as well as some explanation on how my interpretation of your comment doesn’t match what you claim you meant to say. And I’m still curious as to how this stance is compatible with the apparent attitude that Matt Taylor needs to be protected from any feminist criticism.

    1. 30.1

      I withdraw my claim about you misrepresenting me.
      I doubt that all but possibly a very few women find that sure so shocking that it would constitute making a workplace hostile. The outrage expressed on the internet is a false outrage ginned up by phony feminists that are falsely portraying women as weak willed fainting machines. So yes, you are correct, I did mean that.
      Who said Matt Taylor needed to be protected from any feminist criticism? My take is that he was unfairly criticized and the resulting shitstorm has taken away from the accomplishment of Taylor and his team of male AND FEMALE scientists and engineers.
      Do you think women aren’t strong enough to view some cartoons of James Bond characters? If so you apparently don’t have a high opinion of women.

      1. I doubt that all but possibly a very few women find that sure so shocking that it would constitute making a workplace hostile.

        If you actually listened to women, rather than just lecturing them that they’re doing feminism wrong, you would have gathered by now that the shirt, by itself, is not a big deal, but that it represents a larger cultural pattern that should be changed.

        This incident is part of a larger context (maybe look up “microaggressions” if you’re so keen to pretend to be a feminist). By framing it as an isolated incident outside of larger cultural or historical context, you are approaching the issue inaccurately.

        The outrage expressed on the internet is a false outrage ginned up by phony feminists that are falsely portraying women as weak willed fainting machines.

        Yes, all respectable feminists recognize that listening to what women say is part of an evil anti-feminist conspiracy. TRUE Feminism involves finding a few women who don’t think something is sexist, and then using them as an excuse to tell other women that their concerns are invalid. Hooray for Feminism!

        Who said Matt Taylor needed to be protected from any feminist criticism? My take is that he was unfairly criticized and the resulting shitstorm has taken away from the accomplishment of Taylor…

        Ah, so you don’t think he has to be protected from ANY feminist criticism, only feminist criticism that you have ruled to be invalid, using all of that wisdom you have that makes you better at feminism than women. I apologize for misunderstanding you.

        1. So you think TRUE feminism is finding a few flaky women that think something IS sexist and they get to tell other women what is sexist? The artist that made this shirt is a woman called Elly Prizeman. Are you a pope of feminism that gets to mansplain to her that her shirt is sexist?
          My belief in women is formed by the real experts, women that have shown by example what feminism is and explained it to me. You wouldn’t have to apologize for misunderstanding me if you wouldn’t try so hard to do it.:D

  28. 31

    abear:

    I doubt that all but possibly a very few women find that sure so shocking that it would constitute making a workplace hostile.

    Heina linked to posts from women scientists that explain why they find that that shirt contributes to a hostile work environment. I did too. You doubt because you are ignoring the evidence we are showing you.

    The outrage expressed on the internet is a false outrage ginned up by phony feminists that are falsely portraying women as weak willed fainting machines.

    When you are calling people like Dr. Carolyn Porco or Dr. Pamela L. Gay “phony feminists”, it doesn’t make me think less of these scientists. It makes me think that you do not know what you are talking about.

    1. 31.1

      Artemis:
      I’m not terribly familiar with Dr. Porco, but when you mention Dr. Pamela Gay, I recall seeing photos of her touching Dr. Plait’s chest (he is also the source of the link you are referring to. This occurred at a “Pimps an Hos” themed party held after a conference. It seems to me that neither Plait or Gay would actually be offended at the shirt in question if it were at one of their celebrations.
      Gay and Plait are phony feminists in my opinion. You can quote me on it.
      Also I disagree with Gay on religion http://www.starstryder.com/about-me/this-i-believe/

  29. 32

    You are a hateful, petty idiot and your blog exist for the sole purpose of making revenue from ads (one even popped up as i clicked to make this comment). Here’s to you, from a woman in STEM who doesn’t whine over other people’s choice of clothing…

    Oh by the way, since you claim that women in STEM are so ‘unwelcome’ and ‘objectified’ or whatever…have you ever considered NURSES? Their work is far more difficult to handle than that of the scientist, both physically and psychologically (considering all the blood, snot, vomit, crap they need to deal with, along with cries in agony of people in ICU or palliative care, harassment from a great deal of male patients, inhumane 24 or 36 hour shifts, being underpaid – and I mean insultingly underpaid, and they are also the most sexualized profession with ‘nurse’ being voted as No#1 fetish year after year…. so please tell me, how is it that year after year, myriads of young women choose to be nurses (despite the fact that their family, friends and relatives try really hard to talk them out of such miserable, masochistic career with very little or no chance of advancement) but you claim that women, in general, are such delicate pansies that they will give up career in STEM if they feel ‘unwelcome’ because of somebody’s *shirt*??? You are a moron! And if you feel it’s OK to hurt an innocent and good human being like Dr Taylor for an idiotic reason like you don’t like his shirt, then you are a malicious, evil person and you deserve any shit that comes your way

    1. 32.1

      Read and learn. http://www.popehat.com/2014/11/17/shirts-and-shirtiness/

      //You are a hateful, petty idiot…//

      Ad hom attack.

      //and your blog exist for the sole purpose of making revenue from ads//

      Appeal to motive fallacy.

      //Here’s to you, from a woman in STEM who doesn’t whine over other people’s choice of clothing…//

      Ad hom attack, appeal to authority.

      //Oh by the way, since you claim that women in STEM are so ‘unwelcome’ and ‘objectified’ or whatever…have you ever considered NURSES?… (blah blah blah lots of crap) so please tell me, how is it that year after year, myriads of young women choose to be nurses (despite the fact that their family, friends and relatives try really hard to talk them out of such miserable, masochistic career with very little or no chance of advancement)//

      Probably because it’s a field, like secretarial, that men really don’t want to go into. Since men aren’t interested in doing it that means it’s open season for women to get jobs in it and now that we’re slaughtering not just women’s rights but economic rights in America thanks to dumb ASJW thinking like yours, women like, need those jobs to survive, shitty or not.

      Also, when you consider the health insurance that comes with a job in nursing (union, baby! Plus hospitals often offer great perks in this area) then getting a degree in nursing in a country where not having decent health care means crippling debt?
      Then if you can get a job in that field, it’s worth the bullshit. Hell, even I considered going into nursing for the perks that came with what was an otherwise shitty job.

      //are such delicate pansies that they will give up career in STEM if they feel ‘unwelcome’ because of somebody’s *shirt*??? //

      Strawman. Plus more victim shaming.

      //You are a moron!//

      Ad hom attack.

      //And if you feel it’s OK to hurt an innocent and good human being like Dr Taylor for an idiotic reason like you don’t like his shirt, then you are a malicious, evil person and you deserve any shit that comes your way//

      Wow. So we’re making up totally random crap so we can yell about it now? Okay, my turn.

      —So if you feel like it’s okay to harm innocent kittens by crimping their ears back with nipple clamps while you play Barry Manilow’s “Copacabana” at maxed out volume on your 1980s retro-boom box, all while you share a froze-fruit pop with Bill Cosby while you discuss his preferred choice of date rape drug, then you are a malicious, evil person and deserve any shit that comes your way.—

      Anyone else want to say some silly shit for me to address? I’ve got some time to kill before the next episode of “American Horror Story” comes on.

    2. 32.2

      You must be new here. Welcome.

      You are a hateful, petty idiot

      My commenting policy does not allow for punching-down slurs like “idiot” and “moron”. Please refrain from ableist slurs if you choose to comment in future. Much obliged.

      your blog exist for the sole purpose of making revenue from ads (one even popped up as i clicked to make this comment).

      Most of the money made from the ads goes towards the costs of running the network. I’m sure you’re aware that domains, hosting, security, and so on cost money to have and maintain. If we didn’t have ads, we’d have to pay to put out of our own pockets to put out the content that people read for free.

      I do get some money from my traffic. I’ve been blogging here since August but only saw my first ad payout at the beginning of this month. I earned a whopping $23 for all of August. Given that I devote at least a few hours every weekday to writing posts, responding to comments in detail like I am here, and all the other little tasks associated with being a halfway-decent blogger, at our most generous estimate, I’m making $1 a day and far less than a penny a word. I think it’s safe to say that not profit that drives me.

      Oh by the way, since you claim that women in STEM are so ‘unwelcome’ and ‘objectified’ or whatever

      you claim that women, in general, are such delicate pansies that they will give up career in STEM if they feel ‘unwelcome’ because of somebody’s *shirt*??

      Hm, where did I say that at all? My argument wasn’t about women just in STEM, but women in the workplace in general. I apologize if that was unclear and would be happy to correct any place in my post where I said anything along those lines.

      I agree that nurses have it hard. What is the relevance?

      if you feel it’s OK to hurt an innocent and good human being like Dr Taylor for an idiotic reason like you don’t like his shirt, then you are a malicious, evil person and you deserve any shit that comes your way

      How have I hurt him? I am curious as to how a post about how women get clothing-policed at work hurts him somehow. Furthermore, I do not appreciate threats, however oblique, about “shit coming my way”. Thank you for refraining from even vague threats in future. As an ex-Muslim, I am forced to take even insinuations about my personal safety being compromised very seriously indeed.

  30. 33

    As for me tut-tutting SallyStrange, she has a habit of making character accusations about me, (not that she will ever back it up with facts), so I occasionally respond in a less than serious manner.

    I’ll just point out that it was about a week ago, or two, that I pointed to abear’s literal “tut-tutting” of me in a thread on another FTB blog as evidence of his assholish stuffiness. Naturally, he goes out of his way to do it again. This is not the action of someone who is kind and not essentially trolling.

    I make no comments on your character other than to note that your claim to being a feminist is either based on lies or a hugely flawed misunderstanding of what it means to be a feminist, and I have seen your “misunderstanding” of feminism corrected too many times at this point for that explanation to hold any water for me. You consistently repeat anti-feminist tropes, as you did in this thread, while claiming to be a feminist. That’s destructive and dishonest. Someone who was not trolling and who was arguing in good faith would be more concerned about giving this perception, and I’m not the only one who has it.

    1. 34.1

      I think part of it is that I have comments turned on. They’re directing frustration at me from others’ writings about the shirt. I can tell because I’m reading counter-arguments to arguments that I’ve never, ever made, not even privately, but have read everywhere.

  31. 36

    What the hell.

    You are a hateful, petty idiot and your blog exist for the sole purpose of making revenue from ads (one even popped up as i clicked to make this comment).

    Starting things off with a bald-faced lie. There are surely easier ways to rake in cash than to blog about feminism and atheism from an ex-Muslim perspective.

    Here’s to you, from a woman in STEM who doesn’t whine over other people’s choice of clothing…

    Oh yeah?? Well I’m a woman in STEM and I do whine over other people’s choice of clothing! That’s totally relevant because apparently we’re just taking surveys, not actually trying to tease out the substance of various arguments!

    Oh by the way, since you claim that women in STEM are so ‘unwelcome’ and ‘objectified’ or whatever…have you ever considered NURSES? Their work is far more difficult to handle than that of the scientist, both physically and psychologically (considering all the blood, snot, vomit, crap they need to deal with, along with cries in agony of people in ICU or palliative care, harassment from a great deal of male patients, inhumane 24 or 36 hour shifts, being underpaid – and I mean insultingly underpaid,

    It is more demanding than being a scientist and you need similar amounts of training–gee, I wonder why it’s underpaid. Perhaps because it’s a profession dominated by women and associated with feminine-coded virtues such as nurturing and caretaking?

    and they are also the most sexualized profession with ‘nurse’ being voted as No#1 fetish year after year….

    WTF, why are anti-feminists so fucking weird about sex?

    so please tell me, how is it that year after year, myriads of young women choose to be nurses (despite the fact that their family, friends and relatives try really hard to talk them out of such miserable, masochistic career with very little or no chance of advancement) but you claim that women, in general, are such delicate pansies that they will give up career in STEM if they feel ‘unwelcome’ because of somebody’s *shirt*???

    Non sequitur. Nurses wear scrubs, FYI. They don’t get to pick their outfits. Usually they’re solid color, but sometimes they have teddy bear prints or flower prints on them. I checked with my mom, who is a nurse, and all the workplaces she’s been in have had anti-sexual harassment policies that would forbid calendars, pictures, or clothing with sexual or sexualized imagery.

    You are a moron!

    Unlikely, and irrelevant to the point Heina’s making.

    And if you feel it’s OK to hurt an innocent and good human being like Dr Taylor for an idiotic reason like you don’t like his shirt, then you are a malicious, evil person and you deserve any shit that comes your way

    Dr. Taylor is fine. Heina has done nothing to hurt him. Pointing out that his shirt was inappropriate and exactly the sort of thing that contributes to a hostile work environment for women doesn’t actually hurt anything but his feelings, and I’m sure he’s plenty recovered by now. His career will be fine. He isn’t, for example, being threatened with rape or murder, though some of the women who publicly objected to his shirt are. Natch.

    Also, if shirts are irrelevant and you’re weakling for caring, then what kind of weakling are you for caring what someone says about your shirt? Y’all anti-feminists never think these things through, do you?

  32. Jon
    39

    As a STEM graduate student (in communication systems, hoping to work on satellite com. systems after graduation) it enrages me that this shirt, a piece of clothing, is getting more attention than one of the most amazing feats thus far in the 21st century. Can any of the people focusing on this shirt even fathom the complexities of the Rosetta mission? I don’t care if the person who did this came on TV naked, this is an amazing accomplishment being overshadowed by absolute nonsense.

    1. 39.1

      A) Quite some of the people who complained are astrophysicists who worked with similar projects, so I guess they do
      B) You know, it’s fun that you don’t care. So what?
      C) Really, don’t do that. Don’t make special rules for people because they’re famous or did something great. In the history of humankind, this has led to lots of attrocities
      D) Did you know that Dr. Taylor did not do it all himself? There were many people involved
      E) If it’s bad that this is overshadowed by this shirt, why not be angry with the person who thought that this historical moment was the right time and place to wear a sleazy shirt that falls under the definition of workplace harassment in about everywhere?
      F) Dude, we actually don’t like this. It’s fuck annoying that we need to keep talking about this. Can you imagine how it enrages us?
      G) Seriously, we would have stopped talking about this some time last week . It’s you who keeps this going
      H) If I were Dr. Taylor I would be pretty ashamed of people like you now. On the other hand it would tell me exactly how bad my choice was if I got you as my brave shining knight
      I) Hey, how about you show up for work naked the day your first big project is a success? Please come back and tell us then.

    2. 39.2

      I agree. I wish he had chosen something less thoughtless to wear when the announcement was made so that we could focus on the awesome accomplishment. Instead, we were reminded that women don’t get to be scientists on TV, they get to be objectified on male scientists’ shirts instead.

  33. 40

    abear,

    Saad: Heina said she was unsympathetic toward Matt Taylor and would be until women were no longer being unfairly treated for their clothing choices.

    My point is that a fair attitude would be to be sympathetic to someone being unfairly treated regardless of their gender. I brought up the anecdote about my own workplace discrimination because of my beard to demonstrate that yes, even men suffer workplace discrimination.

    I don’t think you chose your analogy well; I didn’t complain that women discriminate against men therefore it’s alright to discriminate against women. If the gay activist said he wasn’t against violence against straights until gays were spared violence, wouldn’t you think it right to call him out on that (no pun intended)?

    No, you didn’t choose your analogy well. Matt Taylor isn’t being discriminated against.

    I’ll ask the question again. You chose to ignore it the first time:

    What is Matt Taylor to be sympathized with for?

  34. 42

    First of all, sorry for my bad english. Still learning 🙂

    I feel like people are getting a bit side tracked on this issue.

    The world is coming out in force to cry “shaming!” in defense of a man who wore a shirt covered in images of women in sexy outfits to work. I repeat: A man can wear a shirt to work depicting women wearing clothes that actual women at his workplace can’t dream of wearing in public ever, even outside of the workplace, lest they be chastised and possibly fired.

    It is obviously correct, that women are subject to a more strict dress code and men aren’t as much. But here is what I don’t get (and I apologies if I misread any of your statements): You did not once write in your article, that the choice of the T-Shirt itself was inappropriate, instead you focused on the fact, that women would not be allowed to wear these shirts. So I really don’t get your conclusion. How on earth is the correct response “Limited choice for women? Well limited choice for men too!” and not “Lets not limit any ones choice of fucking clothing! How about that?”?

    How is a Lynch-mob mentality in any way an appropriate response to a nice guy picking a bad T-Shirt to work? I don’t care what gender or what side you are on, but if you think that these hateful responses he got for a fucking T-Shirt were in any way justified, than you are just pathetic.
    And I know, that outspoken Feminists – or outspoken women in general – are often met with even more hateful responses (e.g. GamerGate). But why lower yourself to that pathetic standard? Why is it, that we always shoot for less, instead of more?

    Until the day comes where women and women-perceived people’s clothing choices are not policed to death, especially in the workplace, I am entirely unsympathetic towards Matt Taylor’s choice to express his sexual preferences via his clothing choices at work.

    And this exactly says it all. You don’t care for the idea of a judgement free clothing of people, unless everyone has it. You would rather see your friend get bullied just because you don’t have it any better. How will that attitude make ANY difference? Why go after a guy that has a choice in clothing? Wouldn’t it be more useful to criticize the society that is prohibiting you from having that same right. He might be part of that society, but he is NOT the one that puts women down. This aimless witch-hunt is achieving nothing, on both sides!

    1. 42.1

      I’m really sorry if my comment seems in any way offensive, but I just really hate that eye-for-an-eye mentality in our culture, which is only intended to harm, instead of improving a state.

    2. 42.2

      It is obviously correct, that women are subject to a more strict dress code and men aren’t as much. But here is what I don’t get (and I apologies if I misread any of your statements): You did not once write in your article, that the choice of the T-Shirt itself was inappropriate,

      The shirt has been written about extensively all over the place; Heina linked to several pieces discussing it and chose to discuss a specific sub-issue, rather than add a redundant voice echoing other people. I don’t understand why you find this objectionable.

      So I really don’t get your conclusion. How on earth is the correct response “Limited choice for women? Well limited choice for men too!” and not “Lets not limit any ones choice of fucking clothing! How about that?”?

      I think you’ve misread the post; to me, it suggests the latter conclusion far more than the former.

      How is a Lynch-mob mentality in any way an appropriate response to a nice guy picking a bad T-Shirt to work? I don’t care what gender or what side you are on, but if you think that these hateful responses he got for a fucking T-Shirt were in any way justified, than you are just pathetic.

      What hateful responses? No, seriously. Show me the hateful responses you are referring to. Link them. Because all of the criticism I saw from feminists was pointed, but fair, far from being “hateful” or a “lynch mob”. And every feminist I know was satisfied with his apology and happy to let the matter rest there. So please share with me the hateful response you’re thinking of, because I’m not convinced it exists.

      And I know, that outspoken Feminists – or outspoken women in general – are often met with even more hateful responses (e.g. GamerGate). But why lower yourself to that pathetic standard?

      If you know of anyone who has threatened Taylor with rape or murder, please share the details. To my knowledge this has not happened, making your comparison extremely questionable.

      And this exactly says it all. You don’t care for the idea of a judgement free clothing of people, unless everyone has it. You would rather see your friend get bullied just because you don’t have it any better. How will that attitude make ANY difference?

      I think this is, at best, an extremely confused reading of Heina’s point.

      Why go after a guy that has a choice in clothing? Wouldn’t it be more useful to criticize the society that is prohibiting you from having that same right.

      With all due respect: did you actually read the post you are commenting on? It barely mentions Taylor, and criticizes society at some length. Can you quote some parts of the piece that you found objectionable?

      I just really hate that eye-for-an-eye mentality in our culture, which is only intended to harm, instead of improving a state.

      I would be very interested in hearing about how you evaluated the feminist response to this incident as being intended to hurt Taylor as an individual, rather than improve the culture he works in.

    3. 42.3

      You did not once write in your article, that the choice of the T-Shirt itself was inappropriate, instead you focused on the fact, that women would not be allowed to wear these shirts.

      No, I focused on the fact that people were defending his shirt which depicted women in clothing that women are not only generally not allowed to wear to work, but also have been fired over for wearing in their private lives outside of work.

      So I really don’t get your conclusion. How on earth is the correct response “Limited choice for women? Well limited choice for men too!” and not “Lets not limit any ones choice of fucking clothing! How about that?”?

      That …. that wasn’t my conclusion. My conclusion is that people care about defending men’s clothing choices and policing women’s, and that’s fucked up.

      Why go after a guy that has a choice in clothing? Wouldn’t it be more useful to criticize the society that is prohibiting you from having that same right. He might be part of that society, but he is NOT the one that puts women down. This aimless witch-hunt is achieving nothing, on both sides!

      Where did I “go after” and “witch-hunt” him? Please point out where I did and I will correct my writing to reflect my true goals.

  35. 44

    That …. that wasn’t my conclusion. My conclusion is that people care about defending men’s clothing choices and policing women’s, and that’s fucked up.

    No I got that, you point out the hypocrisy and that is just fair. But you make it sound like defending his clothing choice also implys policing women’s – or in other words – that one should not defend his clothing until women have that same choice. (Even if the defender and the defendant is sympathatic with that goal). But either his choice was okay, or it wasn’t. It should not depend on what women are allowed to wear, IF you yourself want unrestricted clothing choices for both genders.

    Where did I “go after” and “witch-hunt” him? Please point out where I did and I will correct my writing to reflect my true goals.

    Okay, that was very badly phrased. I meant the backlash in general. It was not directed at you. I apologies for that 🙁

    1. 44.1

      We should defend people’s clothing choices equally. Right now, the imbalance is in favor of men and not women. That’s why I advocated for defending women’s clothing choices.

      In my view, I would say that it isn’t as simple as whether his choice was “okay” or “not okay”. His actions exist in a context, not a vacuum. I am not engaging in detached ethical philosophy. The whole point of my post was to contextualize his choice.

      Next time you comment, I will ask that you take your frustration at other people to them and not direct it at me. I am not accountable for all those other people’s actions and words unless I linked to them, and I didn’t link to any people who “went after” or “witch-hunted” him (if indeed such people exist in the first place).

  36. 45

    Next time you comment, I will ask that you take your frustration at other people to them and not direct it at me. I am not accountable for all those other people’s actions and words unless I linked to them, and I didn’t link to any people who “went after” or “witch-hunted” him (if indeed such people exist in the first place).

    Okay, now you just being passive aggressive. What frustration? You just wrote, that it is about the context and, well, the reaction he got is part of the context. So why shouldn’t I be allowed (in this comment section) to see your article in the context. I apologised for the fact, that I phrased it in a way you thought I was attacking you, but I just don’t see a reason why I shouldn’t have mentioned it.

    That’s why I advocated for defending women’s clothing choices.

    By being unsympathatic with his choice? How is that helping? I just don’t believe that is the right approach to that problem.

    I am not engaging in detached ethical philosophy. The whole point of my post was to contextualize his choice.

    But his choice and the reaction he got IS important to the context, because it does effect the idea of an unrestricted clothing choice.

    1. 45.1

      Asserting my boundaries is not passive-aggressive. You were clearly angry at others’ arguments when you wrote your comment, so angry that you didn’t bother to differentiate theirs from mine when writing your comment until I pointed out the conflation that you made.

      But his choice and the reaction he got IS important to the context, because it does effect the idea of an unrestricted clothing choice.

      Um, exactly. Despite my humble blog post, most people were defensive about him, even though his job was never on the line. Meanwhile, women face this far more commonly to little defense from the public at large.

  37. 46

    I’m a woman in the so called “STEM” graduated from two top universities and pursuing a PhD in Computer Science (Just avoiding people calling me the oppressive white man) and I have to be honest, the only reason I noticed the shirt was because of all this Shirt Storm happening. Seriously, stop seeing things that aren’t there. If you have time to shit post about someone’s fantasy shirt there’s clearly something missing in you life.

    1. 46.2

      Some Girl doing CompSci says: I’m surprised your post has been up for almost 24 hours and you haven’t been told you are a lying troll and not a feminist because this shirt doesn’t offend you and make you want quit your studies.
      Where are you Sally and the other members of the Sisterhood of Perpetually Oppressed? This woman clearly needs to be educated about why she should be offended!

  38. 47

    The posts from women that I’m reading make me feel like women are actually mentally handicapped. A significant difference between Dr. Taylor’s shirt and your real life bodies is that the images on his shirt are 2-dimensional, meaning it doesn’t matter if he is walking up stairs, or bending over to pick up a pen, or trips over a stray computer, or any other position imaginable; you cannot see anything real. The images on his shirt are certainly suggestive, but children see much worse from women at a public beach. And also, Feminists fight for women’s right to do so.

    And this is really where women fail to really win society over. They don’t all agree on what is correct, and they contradict one another (and too often they contradict themselves). This man’s shirt was not outrageous. It was probably not ideal for an international broadcast, but it wasn’t all that bad and it really isn’t his responsibility to identify such a problem: like such a man he’s focused on the science and engineering, not the fashion. Whoever is broadcasting it should be responsible for controlling what they broadcast to whom. Of course, this wasn’t a fucking scripted sitcom. It was a fucking remote space experiment. There are more important things to worry about than the content rating. Nobody gives a fuck if the video broadcast is appropriate for your 5 year old. Your 5 year old doesn’t need to watch it live.

    The geek that actually gets results, but is probably socially awkward and doesn’t play by the social rules that he doesn’t understand is not bound by the rules of the retarded population in society. It was up to the broadcasting personnel to identify any problems there. I don’t know the details, but I can imagine that he hasn’t spent a lot of time in front of a camera and if it were me I wouldn’t have done anything exceptional that day to prepare for the occasion. I would have been worried about the task at hand and ignored the social bullshit of life just like I always do.

    All of the women crying “women in STEM blah blah blah” need to realize that STEM fields are tough. Period. Men will get berated for sucking at these fields just as much as women. If not moreso since we expect women to suck at them and these days Feminsm is so ingrained into policy that we need to be careful what we say to women that suck. You can’t argue with reality. If women want so badly to participate in STEM fields then fucking demonstrate that you don’t suck at it. Most men suck at these fields too. Even the majority of men in these fields suck. And the ones that don’t suck aren’t afraid to tell the ones that do suck that they suck. Women that are actually good at these fields won’t have any problems. For all of the other women, it isn’t your gender or discrimination that is holding you back, it’s you.

    1. 47.1

      @bambam

      //The posts from women that I’m reading make me feel like women are actually mentally handicapped. A significant difference between Dr. Taylor’s shirt and your real life bodies is that the images on his shirt are 2-dimensional, meaning it doesn’t matter if he is walking up stairs, or bending over to pick up a pen, or trips over a stray computer, or any other position imaginable; you cannot see anything real. //

      I’m wondering if you’re visually handicapped in some way. I’m guessing you’re rather ignorant on all theory pertaining to visual arts and psychology, and how images effect a person. Most people have at least an intuitive understanding of this. you seem to be missing that cognitive apparatus.

      The remainder of your post consists of a huge false comparison along with an appeal to the whole; “women are weak and don’t understand how easy they have it so they want special privileges” line of bullshit.

  39. 48

    I find mythical level of irony displayed in your article, and by feminists at large concerning this issue, to be utterly hilarious. I seem to recall that feminism was, at least in part, about tearing down stereotypes concerning women. Stereotypes, for instance, like ‘Women have nothing of value to contribute concerning important issues, they are more concerned with clothing and shoes’. Yet here you are, along with a band of feminists, paying not the slightest bit of attention to a substantial scientific achievement, but rather exclaiming ‘OMG. Look at that shirt!’

    Moreover, you lament criticism of women’s mode of dress, but are perfectly at ease with criticising Matt Taylor’s shirt. You’re either completely oblivious to your gargantuan hypocrisy, or you’re just banking on your merry band of idiot followers not picking up on it.

    And last but not least, in the same week that this stupid story broke, there was another story about shirts. Shirts which displayed the print ‘This is What a Feminist Looks Like’. These shirts were made to promote feminism, and were proudly worn by feminists, celebrities, politicians, and was promoted in Elle magazine. There was only one problem. The shirts were made in a sweatshop. By women who are paid a pittance, forced into 4 year contracts during which they can’t see their families, and made to sleep like packed sardines. Where’s your scathing article about that story, hmm?

    As long as what’s *printed* on the shirt supports feminism, you social justice hypocrites won’t batt an eyelid, am I right?

    1. 48.1

      And last but not least, in the same week that this stupid story broke, there was another story about shirts. Shirts which displayed the print ‘This is What a Feminist Looks Like’. These shirts were made to promote feminism, and were proudly worn by feminists, celebrities, politicians, and was promoted in Elle magazine. There was only one problem. The shirts were made in a sweatshop. By women who are paid a pittance, forced into 4 year contracts during which they can’t see their families, and made to sleep like packed sardines. Where’s your scathing article about that story, hmm?
      As long as what’s *printed* on the shirt supports feminism, you social justice hypocrites won’t batt an eyelid, am I right? !

      Poisoning the well fallacy.

      Personally, I think it sucks if it’s true. Everyone is waiting for the Mail to confirm the claim. As of yet, they haven’t. Here’s the official response by the org in question that makes the shirt;

      “At this stage, we require evidence to back up the claims being made by a journalist at the Mail on Sunday,” Neitzert said. “If any concrete and verifiable evidence of mistreatment of the garment producers emerges, we will require Whistles to withdraw the range with immediate effect and donate part of the profits to an ethical trading campaigning body … we remain confident that we took every practicable and reasonable step to ensure that the range would be ethically produced and await a fuller understanding of the circumstances under which the garments were produced.”

      I found this response post here;
      http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2827035/Scandal-62p-hour-T-shirts-Shame-feminists-betrayed-cause-writes-ROSIE-BOYCOTT.html

      My problem with the response is this. In it the writer says;

      “the predominantly female migrant workers who actually make them have to work a gruelling 45-hour basic week…”

      40-45 hours is the standard work week in America. So while I don’t know much about the claims about the rest of the conditions, i find the claim of “4 hours is grueling” to be highly questionable.

    2. 48.2

      I find mythical level of irony displayed in your article, and by feminists at large concerning this issue, to be utterly hilarious. I seem to recall that feminism was, at least in part, about tearing down stereotypes concerning women. Stereotypes, for instance, like ‘Women have nothing of value to contribute concerning important issues, they are more concerned with clothing and shoes’. Yet here you are, along with a band of feminists, paying not the slightest bit of attention to a substantial scientific achievement, but rather exclaiming ‘OMG. Look at that shirt!’

      People can do more than one thing. Like you are complaining about people complaining about a shirt and being condescending on the internet, yet I have no doubt you were also enthralled by the scientific achievement.

      Moreover, you lament criticism of women’s mode of dress, but are perfectly at ease with criticising Matt Taylor’s shirt. You’re either completely oblivious to your gargantuan hypocrisy, or you’re just banking on your merry band of idiot followers not picking up on it.

      Heina’s article above was more about the fact that his defenders would not be defending a woman, or a person perceived as a woman wearing what the women on his shirt were wearing. He is defended when displaying on his body in public images of women dressed in a way that is unacceptable for women to dress in public, and Heina was pointing out the asymmetry of that, soooo your whole quote there is completely not applicable in relation to this particular article.

      That said, you’re making a very shallow argument. To me, the issue isn’t a blind “nobody should be criticized for what they wear EVAR.” That’s ridiculous. There are many things that would be unacceptable to wear in many different situations. As always you have to look at what is being criticized and why. So ask yourself, why are women typically criticized for their clothing? What is the motivation behind it? Maybe compare it to how and when men are typically criticized for their clothing. What messages do the clothing and criticisms send? Then do the same for Taylor’s shirt.

    3. 48.3

      I’m pointing out the hypocrisy of rushing to a man’s defense when he wears a shirt but ignoring the daily criticism, chastising, and firing of women over clothing. Sorry you couldn’t see that.

  40. 49

    And this is really where women fail to really win society over. They don’t all agree on what is correct, and they contradict one another (and too often they contradict themselves).

    Take note, women: we’re still not part of society, having failed to win society over thus far. On account of us contradicting each other–hivemind fail, ladies!–and even ourselves. Something which you can count on men to never ever do.

  41. 50

    SallyStrange @ 49,

    What a silly person he is! Clearly hasn’t worked out that women are society and the majority within society. Most of us have better things to do than “convince” people that we exist. We know we do.

    Among those present when the live broadcast went out were several women who are full professors and at least two of them professors of engineering. What happened in later follow-ups was that these women and a handful of men got all the clips from the original broadcasts and longer interviews.

    As for “tough” – dealing with unreconstructed idiots is as tough as it gets.

  42. 51

    No. So far your reasoning amounts to “If he was a woman he’d be boob-shamed and that’s why SJWs should be entitled to hate him for his choice.” Your title is bullshit and bigoted, indeed you are presenting in your very person a worthless pinacle of entitled hatred. In a word you may be described in regards to humanity as mortifying.

    What that man may wear depends on his place of work which clearly aproved of the shirt which depicted a glorious depiction of the classic femme fatal in all her glory. Should he have worn a certain depiction of the birth of the goddess of love the black sludge-like filth that you call a soul would no doubt find offense in it. You are a horrible writer, a horrible thinker, and worst of all a horrible person. How you seek to redeem yourself for your sins is between you and God for a I see before me is the fruit of the damned. Farewell.

  43. 52

    […] This isn’t being picky. This isn’t being bitchy. Imagine, if you will, a woman doing the same interview with hunky, thong-clad men on her shirt and voicing quips about an easy lay. That hypothetical woman would have been fired. Public outcry would have demanded no less. Taken with the fact that, no matter what women wear as a professional scientist, they still get criticized for wearing it, seeing a man in that shirt during a very important interview is a slap in the face. It is a reminder men are held to vastly different standards than women. […]

  44. 53

    By coincidence, we had a chat about appropriate clothing over dinner on Saturday.
    Very casual, my aunt in law and I were discussing a certain brand and how we like their style. I was wearing my new totally gorgeous and incredibly low cut dress of that brand and mentioned that is also combines well with a pair of jeans, but we both agreed that it would still be totally inappropriate for work for either of us: She’s a banker, I’m a teacher. But for a Saturday night at the restaurant, it was just the thing.
    So yeah, women DO police their own outfits, they do police them and try to avoid overly sexy outfits* when we’re in a professional setting. And it’s also OK, because there are power imbalances. It’s nice to express my own sexuality in a casual setting amongst equals. It would not be OK to push that on kids and teens in a setting with a built-in power imbalance.

    *Not that it’s always possible. Some people have such dirty minds that nothing short of a burqa will suffice

  45. 59

    Geez. Totally irrational. Quite something to get lathered up about on a blog that purportedly deals in “reasoned discussion” and the such. So Matt Taylor wore the shirt. Tough shit. Get over it. People have the right to dress however they damned well please, and if you don’t like it, too bad.

      1. Quite true Heina: You have the freedom to be irrational and bothered about all kinds of slights and wrongs, real and imagined. What I’m saying is that wasting time and energy whining and complaining about an eminent scientist’s shirt—a shirt!—makes one a appear to be a childish idiot. Are you? No matter. Either way, you harm whatever cause it is you’re trying to boost. So by all means, have at it if it makes you happy. Just don’t expect normal people to join with you in your little fetish.

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