Comments on: Is Monogamy Fair?

By: eganpenney

eganpenney — Sat, 31 Mar 2012 00:16:54 +0000

but the question “how is having sex with someone outside the relationship any different than seeing a basketball game with someone outside the relationship?” still stands after all this

By: Monogamous fer sure

Monogamous fer sure — Fri, 12 Aug 2011 14:19:23 +0000

Great post. Sorry I’m coming to the game so late, but I only recently discovered your blog.
Here’s one more thing to consider in all this–a factor that puts me firmly on the “no prostitutes” side of the argument in my own case: emotions. I love my wife, and I do not want to hurt her. I imagine that I could show her this post, and we could debate the ins and outs (no pun intended) of professional sex work, and she might rationally come to the conclusion that it would be “unfair” to deny me the right to visit a prostitute from time to time, but that doesn’t mean it wouldn’t hurt when I went out and did it. I don’t know about you, but when reason and emotion have come into conflict in my own life, reason has prevailed somewhat less than 100 percent of the time.
I’ve never actually broached the subject with my wife, and I could be wrong: perhaps she’d be thrilled to have some great new gift ideas for me. I’m guessing not. Fortunately, I don’t actually want to visit a prostitute so badly that I’d risk hurting her even just by asking. Not all people in monogamous relationships will find themselves in this same situation, and I don’t think it ultimately addresses the question of whether monogamy is “fair” or not. But if you’ve decided monogamy is basically fair and are having trouble determining whether visits to professional sex workers should be a permissible exception to the rule, it doesn’t seem unreasonable to let one’s partner’s emotions tip the balance one way or the other.

By: Russel Kuduk

Russel Kuduk — Sun, 01 May 2011 14:35:49 +0000

Redirected here from Normativity.blogspot.com for a class project. The difference between prostitution and stripping or porn I believe is that there is a certain amount of kinship people feel with others that we have sex with. No one can honestly claim to feel nothing during sex, and that a certain bond is present that is not present in masterbation. If this were not the case the large amount of sexual toys meant to simulate real sex would have long ago driven out casual sex. It is this connection between two people that a monogamous relationship seeks to protect. In porn and in Stripping this contact is not present, as such prostitution seems wrong, but not the others.

By: Stumble

Stumble — Sat, 30 Apr 2011 18:47:36 +0000

This is a rediculous long post… So I will try to get the preliminaries out of the way first: 1) First time reader of your blog, but I got here from PZ and will be back. 2) I love the thoughtful comments above.
Greta,
As a non-monogamous man engaged to a monogamous woman I found this piece quite interesting. However I thing you framed the underlying question incorrectly, and that leads down a road to of course an incorrect answer.
Fundamentally I don’t think anyone has a right to anything in a relationship with another person. Since a right by its nature is something that can be enforced against them absent consent. So for example I have a right of free speech that can be positively enforced against the government. Or I have a right of the right to life that can be enforced against everyone else, but I do not have a right to the friendship (romantic or otherwise) that is enforceable against anyone.
You ask, then answer ‘if in a relationship one person has a right to limit their sexual activity in any way?’ However this assumes that there are some rights that can be found in a relationship and I reject this premise fundamentally for the following reasons:
The nature of a private personal relationship is really that of a contract, where each person has agreed to modify some of their behaviors in exchange for a similar modification from the other person(s). Looking at a traditional monogamous relationship you can still see tremendous variety in the nature of these obligations from the example of not watching Dr. Who above to which side of the bed each sleeps on, who does the cooking, cleaning, dishes, ect… Even limiting the discussion to a monogamous relationship there is no truly right or wrong answer to these questions, and the answers may vary drastically from couple to couple.
This variety leads to a lot of problems in some relationships, not usually from those sets of things that the people have discussed and settled on, but from the unspoken obligations people bring to the relationship that are never discussed openly, and therefore spoken about. For instance a lot of people never discuss the arena of sexual issues that are raised in a relationship and just assume that the other person agrees with them on the issues.
This is where the problems arise in open relationships, in porn, strippers, sex workers, ect. It isn’t that any of them fundamentally lead to a broken relationship; it is the lack of communication that creates them. So when one person expects that entering into a relationship necessitates monogamy and the other doesn’t this conflict leads to problems. Just as when one person expects the other to set aside their porn collection and the other doesn’t it can lead to the same type of problems. Fundamentally the anger/upset is really driven by the same issue, that the underlying contract was breached by one person, while the other feels they have acted in accordance with it and are being attacked unfairly.
To me this intellectual construct then answers both the question you raised in discussing porn, and in monogamy, it isn’t that one person has or doesn’t have a right to enforce against the other, it is that the relationship contract has been broken in ones eyes and thus brings into question entire areas related to trust, breach of faith, and the like. Even something as small as wasting money on collectables can lead to the exact same type of feelings of breach of confidence and being lied to. I believe that it isn’t the activity itself, but the breach of the interpersonal relationship agreement that gives rise to these feelings.
Under this theory the request by one to do or refrain from any activity and the acceptance of that request by the other is always a reasonable one. Thus answering the questions you raise about watching pornography and monogamy in a consistent way, without the need to draw some sort of fuzzy uncomfortable line in the sand, or giving rise to the problem of sex-workers. Because fundamentally it isn’t your rights that someone is breaching (leading to potentially difficult grey areas), it is their agreement they have broken.

By: Warm Little Pond

Warm Little Pond — Thu, 28 Apr 2011 15:42:33 +0000

I really enjoyed your post, Greta. But here’s the way I see it. I am only comfortable in monogamous relationships. However, I don’t “expect” my partner to be monogamous towards me. Simply put, any partner of mine has the right to have sex with whomever they wants to, but I have the right to opt out of the relationship if that happens. It’s all about complete honesty from the beginning.
My partner is well aware of the conditions that need to be met in order to maintain a relationship with me; and I know theirs. This is in no way putting restrictions on what each other can do. We are both free to do whatever we like, but we understand that the other has the complete right to end relations if they are uncomfortable with the actions of the other, as long as these comfort/uncomfortable zones are made clear from the beginning.
So, I am fine with someone not being monogamous, but just not with me. This is how I see good relationships working. Neither is claiming superiority over one another, or in any sense restricting the freedoms of the other. Relationships are merely verbal contracts with conditions that need to be discussed and agreed upon before commencing. And sure, it can be revised later, no question. As long as both partners are open and honest, there is no problem.

By: Marinus Berghuis

Marinus Berghuis — Wed, 27 Apr 2011 09:14:53 +0000

Millions of words and a sure fire way to attract attention.Talk about sex and everybody goes mad one way or the other!
it is a pity that the Creator of it all made one fatal mistake!
Every thing that moves has an inborn notion that it is the most important piece of shit on this world.This notion from day one has been a reason to fight.
St Hildegaerd 600 years ago claimed to have been told by God what is supposed to happen to the world (look it up) If her prophesy is correct, there is no more evil mind than the creator of it all.
Our suffering is it’s enjoyment !

By: rainy

rainy — Tue, 26 Apr 2011 09:31:59 +0000

Very interesting post. I had never looked at it this way. I’ve always thought that watching porn wasn’t being non-monogamous, but never had a really good reason for it. I have always looked at it as something private. It’s got nothing to do with my relationship for me. I’m in a monogamous relationship, but still enjoy porn. I see it as a personal form of entertainment, a moment to myself. I see it completely separate from my sexlife with my girlfriend. Looking at strippers seems like the same thing to me, but visiting a prostitute somehow does feel wrong. I don’t know if I can put it into words very accurately. Actually having sex with someone else sounds like replacing your partner to me, because they can do the same things. I don’t know if that makes sense. But it seems to me that porn is something private, a fantasy. Visiting a sex worker to involves your partner because thats something you can also do with your partner. There is one issue though. I’m bisexual and obviously my girlfriend can’t fully fulfill those needs. We can simulate it to some extend, but it’s never the real thing. So I wonder how you would draw the line there. Our agreement on that is that if the opportunity ever arises I ask her how she feels about it. If she doesn’t feel good about it I won’t do it. But is that fair? I’m at peace with our current agreement because we came to it after good communication. But I can imagine other people wouldn’t like to be limited like that in the expression of their sexual desires.

By: Flimsy

Flimsy — Mon, 25 Apr 2011 12:03:27 +0000

Hm, take my wife and I as an example. We have an open marriage. I’m equally bothered by her watching porn as I am at her sleeping with any number of other people (i.e., not really bothered at all, only a twinge of wishing that I could give her whatever it is that she’s craving).
Of course, I can see how for most people, the addition of direct interaction with another person is a significant factor. But I can see how people would think the same about porn in a relationship. For plenty of people, it’s not that they have unique sexual access to their partner, but also dedicated sexual attention from their partner.
For plenty of people, lots of the factors of “adding another person” in direct physical contact are also factors in their partner’s porn use.

By: Greta Christina

Greta Christina — Sat, 23 Apr 2011 01:02:00 +0000

In one case, the couple only watches Dr. Who together. If they’re not together, they don’t watch it with friends, or even alone.

Awwwwwww.
That is one of the most romantic things I’ve heard of.

By: Hope

Hope — Fri, 22 Apr 2011 10:47:15 +0000

It seems to me that there may very well be areas that a couple agrees to be reserved for just the couple. For monogamous couples, sexual intercourse is reserved for the couple only. Some of the non-monogamous couples I know have other things reserved for the couple only. In one case, the couple only watches Dr. Who together. If they’re not together, they don’t watch it with friends, or even alone.