This Week in God
First up from the God machine this week is a church-state controversy I’ve been following for several years now, which I admit I find endlessly entertaining. Best of all, the controversy is going to be heard by the Supreme Court, which guarantees an enormous amount of interest.
If a city allows a monument with the Ten Commandments to be erected in a public park, must it also allow other religions and groups to display monuments of their choosing? The Supreme Court agreed Monday to take up that question in an unusual dispute over the reach of the 1st Amendment and freedom of speech.
In the past, the court has said the free-speech rule applies in parks and officials may not discriminate against speakers or groups because of their message. In this context, freedom of speech means a freedom from government restrictions.
But last year, the U.S. appeals court in Denver extended this free-speech rule to cover the monuments, statues and displays in a public park. It ruled in favor of a religious group called Summum, which says it wants to erect its “Seven Aphorisms of Summum” next to the Ten Commandments in Pioneer Park in Pleasant Grove, Utah.
Its ruling left the city with an all-or-nothing choice: Allow Summum and others to erect their own displays in the park, or remove the other monuments.
It’s a classic case for conservatives who say we need more religion in the public square — and then balk if they don’t like the religions asking for equal treatment.
Local officials in this case want to allow the Ten Commandments (which they like) to be promoted on public property, but want to reject the “Seven Aphorisms of Summum” (which they don’t like). When officials say they support more public endorsement of religion, they mean their religion.
Here’s the funny part: Pleasant Grove is getting legal assistance from TV preacher Pat Robertson’s American Center for Law and Justice.
Yes, the legal group that brags about its efforts to get state-sponsored religion on public property is helping a local government keep a religious group from erecting a religious monument.
The ACLJ and the rest of the religious right insist that we need more religion in the “public square.” The Summum agree. Christian activists respond, “Uh, we didn’t mean you guys.”
The Supreme Court will hear the case in a few months. I look forward to hearing conservative religious activists nationwide argue vehemently against more religious displays.
Also from the God Machine this week, The Virginian Pilot’s Bill Sizemore, who knows as much as Pat Robertson as anyone, had a fascinating observation about Robertson’s plans for the Second Coming. (via Right Wing Watch)
In order to prepare for the imminent Second Coming — which Robertson believes will occur on the Mount of Olives in Jerusalem according to biblical prophecy — he acquired METV (Middle East Television), a station then based in southern Lebanon that could broadcast into Israel. Straub was given marching orders to be ready to televise Christ’s return.
CBN executives drew up a detailed plan to broadcast the event to every nation and in all languages. Straub wrote: “We even discussed how Jesus’ radiance might be too bright for the cameras and how we would have to make adjustments for that problem. Can you imagine telling Jesus, ‘Hey, Lord, please tone down your luminosity; we’re having a problem with contrast. You’re causing the picture to flare.’”
I don’t think I can respond to this any better than Yglesias did: “Good thing that as long as the Republicans are in charge we don’t need to worry about any nutty pastors getting political influence.”
Would someone be willing to spend money on a Flying Spaghetti Monster monument? Or Rev Bob of the Church of Sub Genius? And what would happen if the Scientologists wanted a piece of this action? Or if an atheist (but I don’t know what the hell it would be.)
I want a statue of every Hindu Deity in the park, including all the avatars (Krishna, Rama, Buddha, etc.)
Steve (CB), your This Week in God was the reason I first started reading your work on a regular basis. At the time I didn’t know your background. I have and continue to love this information. Thank you for doing it!
As for watching them argue against religion will be the greatest bit of biting the hand that feeds that I could ever imagine. If only it could get bitten to the point where poor people didn’t send these multi millionaires money they can ill afford so they can live their lavish lifestyles while said poor people eat cat food because it’s all for and about Jesus…forgetting that Jesus didn’t live a lavish lifestyle and didn’t much care for many who did.
I have no problem with people who believe. But when belief overtakes their lives and they live (poorly) for others (who live richly), well it’s just wrong.
And the fact that many of these people of God seem to get more and more OUT THERE certainly doesn’t help matters any. Talk about driving the masses away from religion. It’s the nuts and the hypocrisy that drives me mad.
There are religious memorials all over this country , they’re called churches and mosques and synagogues .
I agree Former Dan. Sure would bring some humor to the Capitals.
Praise “Bob”!
If I’m a Christian believer, I can’t decide which is worse - no religion in the public square, or Jesus placed alongside all those false gods.
This is a mess that the religion-on-my-sleeve crowd made for itself. Couldn’t happen to a nicer bunch.
Are there five votes among the Supremes in favor of a Christians-only approach? Maybe.
What axt113 said. I’d gladly chip in to put a Six Armed Dancing Ganesh with Beautiful Halo on the town common.
To be clear, I say this not to disparage Hindus. I think that it would be a good thing to do regardless of the added benefit of cheesing off some Jesus nutters.
Well no offense but historical evidence shows that jesus’s story is stolen from the stories of many of those “false gods” that he is little more than an amalgam of stories, just like christianity stole christmas and easter from the pagans
MsJoanne said:If only it could get bitten to the point where poor people didn’t send these multi millionaires money they can ill afford so they can live their lavish lifestyles while said poor people eat cat food because it’s all for and about Jesus…
Don’t hold your breath. I got the ACLJ’s fundraising email this morning [links removed]:
Please take just a moment to view a special video report I prepared for you from the steps of the Supreme Court - where an important victory was won.
The Justices have granted review in one of these crucial cases - Pleasant Grove City v. Summum (No. 07-665) … stellar news for the ACLJ, and, in large part, due to your prayers and outstanding support.
Please keep in mind, we are up against a formidable opponent in this case. Summum was successful in their arguments at the appeals court. This will be a hard-fought - must-win - case.
Furthermore, it is the most significant Ten Commandments case to be heard by the Supreme Court and will determine the rights of private speech versus government speech.
We are aggressively moving forward - working effectively and faithfully in this matter - and would appreciate your financial support at this time, especially in light of our $450,000 LIBERTY 2008 Matching Challenge.
Your online gift - DOUBLED IN IMPACT through our Matching Challenge - will help us mobilize our efforts as we push toward victory!
For what it is worth, their argument is that the 10C’s in Pleasant Grove is “Private” speech and can’t be regulated like “Government” speech. If the Supremes buy this argument it opens the floodgates to everyevangelical nutjob to start preaching in schools and all sorts of school prayer as long as it is “private” under this description. We can laugh at ACLJ all we want, but they are good lawyers (not sure if they’ve been polluted by Liberty graduates to a significant degree yet).
If the fundies win it’ll bring this country one step closer to becoming the christian Iran, where science/justice/reality etc. give way to religious dogma and the preferrd method of execution is stoning in the streets
I’ve long envisioned a monument, unfortunately phallic in design (no pun intended) to magic mushrooms: The biblical Israelites may have been high on a hallucino-genic plant when Moses brought the Ten Commandments down from Mount Sinai, according to a new study by an Israeli psychology professor. Writing in the British journal Time and Mind, Benny Shannon of Jerusalem’s Hebrew University said that two plants in the Sinai desert contain the same psychoactive molecules as those found in plants from which the Amazonian hallucinogenic brew ayahuasca is prepared. Shannon said the thunder, lightning and blaring of a trumpet which the Book of Exodus says emanated from Mount Sinai could just have been the imaginings of a people in an “altered state of awareness.”
Martin, I love how it’s private speech until they want the biggest dole which is from the government, e.g., YOUR AND MY MONEY.
These people want it both ways yet they don’t pay taxes and don’t participate in government in any way except to try to rule it.
This is a slippery slope that has become a full blown mudslide.
Sad, sad state of our government on so many different levels.
Well I mean its a religion in which people talk to burning bushes or seeing gods in visions, I think its pretty obvious they were probably chasing the dragon
i would gladly contribute to put a monument of the flying spaghetti monster’s “eight i’d rather you didn’ts” in millenium park in chicago!
If it included a functioning stripper factory and beer volcano I too would contribute
Well this is a creative group today. So many ideas! We’re sort of throwing the flying spaghetti monster up against the wall to see what sticks.
Don’t we have enough hallucinating people in our parks already without the fundies hanging out there?
Remember those tiny bibles with microscopic print? If they would put the ten commandments on the inside of a peanut shell they could put them wherever they want. Now they want 10 ton copies of the 10C. Did Moses have a forklift?
For what it is worth, their argument is that the 10C’s in Pleasant Grove is “Private” speech and can’t be regulated like “Government” speech.
And they are half-right, but they miss the point. This case should be very easy, and if the Supremes screw it up I don’t ever want to hear about liberal judicial activism again.
The 10C monument is private (as opposed to government) speech, but it is in a public forum. The cases are absolutely legion that in a public forum you cannot discriminate on content (subject to the usual incitement, fighting words, etc exceptions). If a school allows the local PETA chapter to use its facilities to meet after school, it has to allow the local Students for Life chapter as well; if it allows the Pentacostal Patriots Club, it also has to allow Students in Satans Service. It has nothing to do with whether the speech/speaker is private - it has everything to do with whether the forum is private or public. A city park is quite clearly a public forum.
I don’t want any religious images or prayers forced on those who visit (and pay for) public places. Period. Aside from the fact that it is physical evidence of the mental incapacity of those who put it there, it is (or was) against the Constitution, and it violates the only fundamental religious (and secular) principle recognized the world over: do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
Have they decided which version of the Ten Commandments they want to put on the monument? That is which 10 of the 12-13 Commandments which had been floated around through the centuries?
Just curious…
A couple of weeks ago at boingboing, I think, they showed how to put together your own spaghetti monster statue, which they erected on public lands for about a weekend, I think, after getting the proper permits.
Oh Jesus! I forgot my goddamn sunglasses!
libra @ #22
maybe they’ll just put a big rock down and hope god comes and carves out the commandments in fire — just like he did for charleton heston.
Ed, it’s:
Command onto others what is best for thyself.
That’s the right’s way. If they don’t like it, you can’t do it, think it, feel it, or say it. If they feel it’s right for them, well, by golly, that means everyone has to do it just like they do.
Recalling the snit the RR threw when a Hindu (damn, I’m not sure what to call a Hindu preist-equivelent) said the opening prayer in the Senate last year, I’m still hoping a classically-educated Senator will invite a Greek Pantheist to open the Senate’s day by burning a goat for Zeus. It counldn’t possibly make things worse, and they could have a snack.
I think it would be nice to have a statue of the Hindu elephant god, Ganesha in the park with the Commandments.
Its about the money (power). These TV preachers are not interested in “values” except
those which will raise money.
I think the concept of “original intent” can be used to resolve such questions. The Founders who drafted the Constitution would certainly not have considered this Summum group to be a religion in any meaningful sense.
From Wikipedia on Summum:
The lower knowledge was embodied in the more widely known Ten Commandments, while the higher was expressed in what Summum refers to as the “Seven Aphorisms.” According to Summum, when Moses first descended from Mount Sinai, he had with him the higher law inscribed on stone tablets. However, the undeveloped condition of the Israelites prevented them from understanding. Moses returned to Mount Sinai and returned with another set of tablets containing the lower law that was much easier for the people to comprehend…
…It is unclear from the available documentation what the precise form of these seven aphorisms would take on these proposed monuments. Perhaps just a list of the seven principles, …
…”Seven Summum Principles” known as Psychokinesis, Correspondence, Vibration, Opposition, Rhythm, Cause and Effect, and Gender.[4]…
So these HIGHER commandments will be placed next to “Commandments for Dummies”
I just don’t understand why this is controversial.
..hehehe
The IPU already has her statue in the park…you just can’t see her. ;-D
“Moses returned to Mount Sinai and received a second set of tablets, tablets inscribed with lower laws that were more readily and easily understood by the Israelites. Upon those tablets were inscribed the Ten Commandments, basic laws that would provide a means for the Israelites to guide and develop themselves.”
So not only did the 7 Principles come before the 10 Commandments, but they represent a Higher Law. The 10 Commandments are just some lower, basic laws meant to keep the savage Christian hordes from hatcheting each other to death en masse before they got a chance to “develop”.
I wrote a diary at daily kos about this (inspired by the story here):
A Monument to Mummified Cats and Meditation of Sexual Ecstacy
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/4/6/132618/4916/32/491173
Re: Flying Spaghetti Monster statues:
http://www.crossville-chronicle.com/homepage/local_story_084161126.html?keyword=leadpicturestory
Paul Grant - yes, IPU does have a statue, but perhaps it was not such a good idea I keep bumping into the darn thing.
What we need is more deities that can be represented by park benches.
You know you might like to check your facts.
ACLJ - The American Center for Law & Justice is NOT Pat Robertson’s organization. Your unfair, biased reporting is shame to true journalism.