Comments on: Atheism for Believers: Do We Need a Book? https://the-orbit.net/entequilaesverdad/2012/04/20/atheism-for-believers-do-we-need-a-book/ Tue, 24 Apr 2012 02:56:41 +0000 hourly 1 https://wordpress.org/?v=6.1.6 By: lpetrich https://the-orbit.net/entequilaesverdad/2012/04/20/atheism-for-believers-do-we-need-a-book/#comment-6401 Tue, 24 Apr 2012 02:56:41 +0000 http://freethoughtblogs.com/entequilaesverdad/?p=16735#comment-6401 Would this be good? Ebon Musings: The Atheism Pages I like Ebonmuse’s tone — he does not seem nasty or angry.

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By: remysecor https://the-orbit.net/entequilaesverdad/2012/04/20/atheism-for-believers-do-we-need-a-book/#comment-6400 Sun, 22 Apr 2012 22:22:19 +0000 http://freethoughtblogs.com/entequilaesverdad/?p=16735#comment-6400 I think the first part of Greta Cristina’s book is good for those who don’t understand, as GC says, why atheists are so angry.

Books like Dawson’s are best for people who 1) believe because they were taught to believe but rarely if ever go to church or 2) already have doubts and want to study the arguments.

Those who would expel from their lives anybody who strays from the faith cannot, in my opinion, be reached by logic.

But for the situation you describe, people who care about you and worry about your lack of faith, I am going to suggest something counter-intuitive: a mini-course in comparative religion – as a way to show how billions of other people answer the basic questions. Think of it as a half-way house on the road to atheism.

Please note: what follows are very broad generatlizations of complex systems of faith and philosophy. I repeat that I do not believe in any of them. I find some aspects of these systems of faith or philosophy intellectually interesting. Other aspects I think are ridiculous. That is not the point.

Cosmology
Hindu cosmology posits a universe that is trillions of years old, that is born, grows, dies and is reborn, Endlessly. (A day of Brahma the creator is 4320 million years; a year of Brahma is 360 such days and nights; a life of Brahma is 100 such years. There are cycles within cycles with the human race being continually reborn just as the universe gets reborn.) We know now that our universe will expand out into nothingness – but since it would appear that physics allows for something from nothing, out of the nothingness another universe may be born. In any case, this is a vision of the universe and time vastly different from that in the Bible.

Life after death
Both Hindus and Buddhists believe in rebirth or reincarnation. One’s future life is determined by how one lives one’s current life (karma). If you are a good person, your next life will be better; if you are not, it won’t.

The goal of Buddhism is to escape this cycle of rebirth and achieve nirvana, a oneness with the universe. The 4 Noble Truths describe the Buddhist view of life; the Eightfold Path describes how to live so as to escape rebirth. Open-minded Christians will find some parts of this philosophy and guide to living not so far removed from their faith.

The ancient Egyptians, of course, believed in an afterlife. That’s why people were buried with the resources they would need in the afterlife. At death, one’s heart (the seat of the soul) is judged against the principles of Ma’at, representing truth and right living. A good person is welcomed into “heaven”; a bad person into “hell”. (There are variations but I think this is a fair generalization. And the similarities to the Christian hell are interesting, to say the least)

What I find most interesting about these attitudes toward an afterlife is that all these faiths promise something good if you live a good life, something bad if you don’t. This contrasts rather strongly with the “accept Jesus Christ as your personal savior” and it doesn’t matter what kind of life you have lead. All that matters is the worship. Now this is no doubt appealing to less-than-perfect individuals, but from an ethical perspective, and the Conservative belief in personal responsibility, there is much to be said for faiths which assert that you control, by the manner in which you live, what your afterlife will be.

Ethics and Morality Without a God
Confucianism consists of a set of precepts for right living: as a person, a member of a family, a community and a nation. Although there are references to Heaven and Harmony, Confucianism is basically a guide to proper behavior that does not depend on belief in a God who punishes evil.

The objective of such a survey is, as I said at the start, to illustrate that there are many ways to address the issues of life and death, and to perhaps open a small crack in the surety that one’s own faith is the only possible faith. It is, after all, easy to criticize faiths or philosophies in which one does not believe. But it is not that far a step to then ask questions about one’s own faith, especially where it intersects with the beliefs of these other faiths.

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By: Randomfactor https://the-orbit.net/entequilaesverdad/2012/04/20/atheism-for-believers-do-we-need-a-book/#comment-6399 Sat, 21 Apr 2012 16:24:56 +0000 http://freethoughtblogs.com/entequilaesverdad/?p=16735#comment-6399 In reply to echidna.

Psalm 14 is Old Testament, and therefore superceded. Hit ’em with Matthew 5:22.

I’d say you should then perform the double-tap with Romans 1:33, but they’ve MOVED that one to Romans 2:1 to hide it.

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By: Nihilismus https://the-orbit.net/entequilaesverdad/2012/04/20/atheism-for-believers-do-we-need-a-book/#comment-6398 Sat, 21 Apr 2012 05:20:12 +0000 http://freethoughtblogs.com/entequilaesverdad/?p=16735#comment-6398 I don’t think you can fully explain in a short “non-confrontational” book why a non-believer doesn’t believe anymore. However, the book could still do a number of things. First, it could give clear definitions of theist, strong atheist, weak atheist, deist, agnostic, gnostic, etc. It could try to explain that lack of belief in the truth a claim does not necessarily mean belief in the falsity of the claim. As mentioned by others, it can also explain how atheists can still be moral.

But considering the audience of the book, it might be helpful to explain how — even if there is a god — everything will work out okay for the reader’s loved one. That is, hypothetically, if god is all-loving and forgiving, he will still let the atheist join her theist family members in heaven. Or at least, he will yet reveal himself to the atheist in her lifetime. That since God is all-knowing, he knows what it will take to convince her. That he gave her the gift of critical thinking and rational reasoning, and he doesn’t want her to waste it. That he is more impressed by how she got to her conclusion then by whether she got the right answer. That even Thomas was allowed to demand proof. That since an atheist cannot force herself to believe, a loving god will not hold it against her. That Jesus’s sacrifice means more — and is truly selfless — if it redeems non-believers as well. After all, we are no more responsible for our non-belief than the “original sin” he supposedly absolved.

Remember, the book’s goal should be to relieve the theist’s worries about their loved one. If it appears early on that the book is trying to argue why the atheist is justified in rejecting religion, the theist will avoid reading it.

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By: MichaelD https://the-orbit.net/entequilaesverdad/2012/04/20/atheism-for-believers-do-we-need-a-book/#comment-6397 Sat, 21 Apr 2012 05:00:54 +0000 http://freethoughtblogs.com/entequilaesverdad/?p=16735#comment-6397 A book? Why not follow the bible’s example and just stick a whole bunch of different books together from different authors all different and contradictory. Only problem is modern books are much longer, the atheist bible would weigh a ton ;p

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By: russ https://the-orbit.net/entequilaesverdad/2012/04/20/atheism-for-believers-do-we-need-a-book/#comment-6396 Sat, 21 Apr 2012 04:54:37 +0000 http://freethoughtblogs.com/entequilaesverdad/?p=16735#comment-6396 Digital Cuttlefish’s April 19th “I believe in…” poem.
I don’t think there’s anything else that needs to be said.

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By: Aliasalpha https://the-orbit.net/entequilaesverdad/2012/04/20/atheism-for-believers-do-we-need-a-book/#comment-6395 Sat, 21 Apr 2012 03:26:02 +0000 http://freethoughtblogs.com/entequilaesverdad/?p=16735#comment-6395 I suspect that a full book would be the wrong approach, what would probably be better is a small pocket book (similar to F’s idea above). Something say 40-60 pages long with a common argument/fallacy on one page & the plain english explanation for why its bullshit on the opposite. Not a general book about atheism but a purpose written book to solve this specific problem.


Just something small and cheap to give to people, something that requires negligible time commitment, isn’t technical and explains everything clearly. Essentially eliminate as many barriers for entry (and/or excuses for not bothering to read it) as possible.


You give someone a 300+ page book with lots of big ideas that need detailed explanations and its quite on the cards that if that someone is hostile to the ideas therein, they’ll lose interest or get lost in detail if they bring themselves to devote the time to read it at all. However if you give someone a book that small written in plain english then even the laziest person would be hard pressed to claim its too long or too hard to follow.

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By: MatthewL https://the-orbit.net/entequilaesverdad/2012/04/20/atheism-for-believers-do-we-need-a-book/#comment-6394 Sat, 21 Apr 2012 03:01:25 +0000 http://freethoughtblogs.com/entequilaesverdad/?p=16735#comment-6394 Perhaps I’m just stating the blindingly obvious, but…

The audience for this is assumed to be a believer who wants to better understand atheist friends so the problem of atheists’ mere existence being offensive is a nonissue.

As to content it seems best to focus on the questions the believer is likely to have (as others have suggested) such as: How can you be moral without god? Aren’t you afraid of death? and so on. In addition to the other sources suggested above there should be lots of inspiration in PZ’s “Why I am an atheist” series as well.

Finally it should probably be written in a tone you would use explaining these things to a friend.

I think this could be a worthwhile project. There is room in the movement for all approaches. I think of it as attack like water. Seep into all the little cracks and expand until bit by bit the megalith eventually crumbles. I guess it’s just a question of whether there are enough suitable cracks and whether your book/pamphlet can work its way into them.

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By: Peter https://the-orbit.net/entequilaesverdad/2012/04/20/atheism-for-believers-do-we-need-a-book/#comment-6393 Fri, 20 Apr 2012 22:13:10 +0000 http://freethoughtblogs.com/entequilaesverdad/?p=16735#comment-6393 In reply to triamacleod.

Jesus & Mo.

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By: george.w https://the-orbit.net/entequilaesverdad/2012/04/20/atheism-for-believers-do-we-need-a-book/#comment-6392 Fri, 20 Apr 2012 21:25:20 +0000 http://freethoughtblogs.com/entequilaesverdad/?p=16735#comment-6392 In reply to iknklast.

I do think rather than reinventing the wheel we should look at the extreme mass of books already out there, and recognize that there actually are atheism primers already out there.

I agree it’s valuable to look at what’s out there, if only for inspiration. But I’m never inclined to discourage someone from creating something. Too few people want to create, and too many feel intimidated by the strange thought that they are wasting their time if they don’t have totally awesome completely original ideas that nobody ever thought of before. It’s like saying you shouldn’t ever have children because it’s been done so yours will be derivative.

Besides, there’s a lot of room to tweak the wheel, to modernize it, to fit it to purpose. Also, there’s nothing like writing to clarify one’s own thinking.

Otherwise, all we need is the Complete Works of Robert Green Ingersoll (and holy shit, it’s FREE for Kindle) and we’re all set.

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