The risk factors for being raped: a complete list

1. Being within fucking-distance (or even groping-distance) of someone who rapes people.

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The risk factors for being raped: a complete list
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113 thoughts on “The risk factors for being raped: a complete list

  1. 51

    They don’t know it as hurt Jussi. That’s the problem. Some people don’t recognize that touching without consent is a violation because “how could just touching hurt a person”. Or “how could sex, which feels good, hurt a person.” But bodily integrity is important, and having control over it and who gets to do things to it is important, and violating that bodily integrity can do real psychological damage. But some people simply do not understand this.

    If you don’t understand how people could think that way, that’s because you empathize with other people. Don’t make the mistake of assuming that EVERYONE ELSE thinks the way YOU do. And don’t assume that people who think differently are mentally damaged, or evil, or monsters. They can be miseducated rational civil intelligent human beings. They can be people who have never been taught to empathize with others. They can be people who have never had a reason to consider anything but their own well-being at the expense of everyone else.

  2. 52

    @ Jason Thibeault
    I’m not very empathic person, I have mild high-functioning autism.
    I really don’t understand how someone could think it’s OK to touch others private parts without consent.

    They can be people who have never had a reason to consider anything but their own
    well-being at the expense of everyone else.

    Again, that’s considered as emotionally healthy?
    To me that sounds like personality disorder.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisocial_personality_disorder

  3. 53

    “Never had a reason to” doesn’t mean “is incapable of” or “has a problem with”. I’ve never had a reason to go deep-sea diving. I don’t know how I’d fare. Doesn’t mean I wouldn’t be great at it!

  4. 54

    @ Jason Thibeault
    Yes, but how that is possible if you live normal life among other humans?
    I would agree if we would talk about people raised by wolfs…

  5. 55

    Jussi:

    Yes, but how that is possible if you live normal life among other humans?
    I would agree if we would talk about people raised by wolfs…

    Lots of humans rationalize even when they ought to know they’ve hurt someone. In rapes specifically, the rationalizations often look like “the raped person was being flirty, therefore they really wanted sex even though they said ‘no’ ” or “the raped person was drunk, therefore they wanted someone to do sex to them without giving permission or having to remember it afterward”. Another excuse is “married women can’t say ‘no’ to their husbands’. Statements like those are nonsense, but people who find out about rapes (or commit rapes) will use them as an excuse to do nothing at all, or nothing except blaming the victim.

    One in three people believes that women who behave flirtatiously are at least partially responsible if they are raped, a report published today reveals. A similar number think that women are partially or wholly responsible for being raped if they are drunk, and more than a quarter believe women are responsible if they wear sexy or revealing clothing.

    The Amnesty International report was described as “shocking” by the group’s UK director, Kate Allen. “The government’s policies on tackling rape are failing and failing badly,” she said. Nearly 15% of respondents thought a woman would be partly responsible for being raped if she was known to have many sexual partners, and 8% totally responsible.

    http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2005/nov/21/ukcrime.prisonsandprobation

    And it’s not just the US or the UK.

    http://www.who.int/mediacentre/news/releases/2013/violence_against_women_20130620/en/index.html

    For combined intimate partner and non-partner sexual violence or both among all women of 15 years or older, prevalence rates were as follows:

    Africa – 45.6%
    Americas – 36.1%
    Eastern Mediterranean – 36.4%* (No data were available for non-partner sexual violence in this region)
    Europe – 27.2%
    South-East Asia – 40.2%
    Western Pacific – 27.9%
    High income countries – 32.7%

    There’s no reason to expect Finland, or any other particular country, to have much lower incidence of rapes than the others.

    But I cannot say much else than I haven’t ever knew anyone who would think it’s OK to finger unconscious people (etc like that). I have never even heard that anyone would think that way.

    Jussi… have you actually asked them? This could get people angry at you, but if you talk to your friends and say “Did you know some people think it’s okay to have sex with someone who’s unconscious?” you may find someone you know thinks like that. You almost certainly know someone who has been raped, but has never told you.

  6. 56

    @ Pteryxx

    Lots of humans rationalize even when they ought to know they’ve hurt someone.

    Yes, I’m sure they do. Can you fix that with education?
    I think not.

    There’s no reason to expect Finland, or any other particular country, to have much lower incidence of rapes than the others.

    I agree, and this is something I have never claimed against.
    I only said I don’t think people rape in Finland, because they think it’s OK to do.

    One in three people believes that women who…

    The article doesn’t offer primary source… I suspect there was variation how people understand word rape and I believe that the numbers are different when the question is asked differently (instead of “committing rape” use “do something wrong”).

  7. 57

    Jussi: You’d be wrong. Here’s the primary source.

    Press release: http://www.amnesty.org.uk/news_details.asp?NewsID=16618

    Source doc: http://www.amnesty.org.uk/uploads/documents/doc_16619.doc

    Percentages taken from the graph.

    Q3. I am now going to read out a series of scenarios which a woman may find herself in. In each could you please indicate whether you believe a woman is totally responsible, partially responsible or not at all responsible for being raped if…

    The woman is drunk (Base, n=1,083)
    26% partially responsible, 4% totally responsible

    The woman has behaved in a flirtatious manner (Base: n=1,078)
    28% partially responsible, 6% totally responsible

    The woman has failed to say ‘no’ clearly to the man (Base, n=1,076)
    29% partially responsible, 8% totally responsible

    A woman is wearing sexy or revealing clothes (Base, n=1,076)
    20% partially responsible, 6% totally responsible

    It is known that the woman has many sexual partners (Base, n=1,076)
    14% partially responsible, 8% totally responsible

    The woman is alone and walking in a dangerous or deserted area (1,075)
    17% partially responsible, 5% totally responsible

  8. 58

    @ Pteryxx

    What “partially reponsible” means here? Does it mean it was partly fault of the victim, or that fault was completely on rapist, but the victim made bad decision which made her more likely to be raped?

    The woman is alone and walking in a dangerous or deserted area (1,075)
    17% partially responsible, 5% totally responsible

    I think this last part reveals the problem in this study.

    I think if they would have asked “Is it wrong to rape woman when she is alone and walking in a dangerous or deserted area?”, then I would think almost all would have answered “Yes!”.

    I think those “totally responsible” answers just tell about cold attitude against people doing mistakes.
    And again I emphasize, rape is never fault of the victim.

  9. 59

    You could just look at the press release I linked for you.

    http://www.amnesty.org.uk/news_details.asp?NewsID=16618

    Amnesty International UK Kate Allen said: “This poll shows that a disturbingly large proportion of the public blame women themselves for being raped. “It is shocking that so many people will lay the blame for being raped at the feet of women themselves and the government must launch a new drive to counteract this sexist ‘blame culture’.”

    but the victim made bad decision which made her more likely to be raped?

    Do you actually believe that women who act flirtatious, wear sexy clothing, have many partners, get drunk, or walk alone are at higher risk of being raped? Because none of that is true, either. Most rapists know their victims, plan to rape them, and do so by manipulating their trust or tricking them into a situation where the victim can’t get away when they realize what’s happening.

    You really don’t know much about rape if you seriously believe that list of old excuses. Do some reading about rape myths – most of these links mention statistics and at least name the studies they come from – and look up your own primary sources instead of telling me to do it for you. You haven’t even looked for sources proving a link between clothing or alleys and risk of rape. If you had, you’d know better.

    https://www.mnsu.edu/varp/assault/myths.html

    http://www.aauw.org/2013/10/11/stop-campus-assault/

    http://www.enmu.edu/services/police/prevention/sexual-assault.shtml

    http://www.uwpexponent.org/2012/04/05/sexual-assault-coverage-contradicts-statistics/

    Sexual assault can be loosely defined as unwanted sexual touching or penetration without consent. According to the Bureau of Justice Statistics, rape can be defined as forced sexual intercourse by means of psychological coercion or physical force. Coercion includes words or situations that make someone fear that their safety is threatened if they don’t have sex. This type of assault includes using physical size or strength, badgering, bribing or threatening to “out” someone’s sexual identity in a way that causes another person to give in to unwanted sexual acts.

    Yet a significant number of men do not recognize or acknowledge coercion as assault. AAUW research shows that 43 percent of college-aged men admitted to using coercion to have sex, including ignoring protests, being physically aggressive and even forcing sex, but none of them recognized or defined their behavior as rape.

    Deirdre Dalsing, director of University Counseling Services, finds that many students are surprised to learn that behavior they have engaged in might have met the definition of sexual assault.

    “Verbal consent is needed,” Dalsing said. ”It’s not about silence. Going into a room with someone is not consent. Young men are surprised by what they learn when they sit and talk in a nonthreatening manner.”

  10. 60

    Jussi
    Please. Stop.
    Because right now you’re becoming the posterboy for “wellmeaning people who perpetrate rape-culture by not knowing the first thing about it”.

    1. Rape is not committed by “mentally ill people”. There is nor correlation between being mentally ill and being a rapist. There is however one between being mentally ill and being raped. And that is because of the stigma attached to mental illness, the stigma you’re reinforcing with your rapist=mentally ill claims. Because if he is sane and she is crazy*, the it’s crazy bitch be lying. That’s why rapists target mentally ill women.

    2. Rape is not done by “bad men”. What you’re doing is called “othering”. It means you’re setting a group of people apart from the rest of us. It is usually done with marginalized groups (gays are…, blacks are…, women are…) and it is done with people who do bad things. They are quickly labelled monsters and, yes, mentally ill, because that way we don’t have to deal with the implications such a bad deed has for society. It’s an individual problem, nothing we can do about it. To go for a slight Goodwin: In 1930 Germans were not that different from the French, the Americans, or the Fins. Nor were they in 1935, or 1940, or 1945. They didn’t become mentally ill monsters in those 12 years and then turned normal again in 45. The real horror is that people like you and I stood up in the morning, sent kids into a gaschamber and then came home and pleyed with the kitten. There’s nothing that makes us inherently different from those who commit hirrible crimes. Actual psychopaths and sociopaths are rare.
    When talking about rape this has another effect: If rape is only committed by bad men, then somebody you know to be a “good man” can’t have raped her, right? And since the world is full of implicit biases against women (hysterical, irrational, dishonest…) then she must be lying, right?

    3. People have posted you many links that show that while people all agree that rape is bad, they hardly know what rape is. Like you they talk about strangers in the bushes, and not friends at parties. Your advice to only “binge-drink with trusted friends” betrays your complete ignorance on the subject. Quite often women find themselves raped by trusted friends (or husbands, for that matter). The very people who they thought they were safe with. How many people think that it’s ok for him to finish if she says stop?

    4.

    What “partially reponsible” means here? Does it mean it was partly fault of the victim, or that fault was completely on rapist, but the victim made bad decision which made her more likely to be raped?

    See, that’s what makes me want to yell at my computer screen. Rape is not in any way caused by women “making bad decisions”. Your very example here is a brilliant example. Women usually don’t walk through deserted areas in the dark because it’s fun. Hell, we’ve been taught from the time we were in diapers that we must never-ever do that. But we want and need to participate in society. I do this “alone in the dark in a deserted area” thingy once a week. Why? Because it’s my damn JOB. And then I do it again once to twice a week now. Why? Because college finishes that late. Unless you think that having a job or getting an education are “bad decisions on part of the victim” you need to shut up about those things.

    *Just for the sake of the argument I will only deal in this comment with male on cis-female rape. This is not meant to exclude other victims or types of rape.

  11. 61

    So, let me get this straight – (1) the primary, perhaps only risk factor a person needs to take into consideration is their proximity to a person who rapes. And (2) most rapists are acquaintances of or are known to the people they rape. Am I with you so far?

    But I’m guessing that most people that are raped by their spouses, lovers, friends, family members or acquaintances did not know until they were raped that they would be raped, i.e. did not know they were in the proximity of a rapist. I’m guessing that because, well, no one wants or expects to get raped – and because the alternative would be that they knew their rapist was a rapist and they chose to be within fucking distance of them – as well as in an environment where no one would intervene to stop a rape once it had begun (like their friend’s comfy and tastefully decorated living room). And then, you know, victim blaming.

    Am I missing something, because I don’t see at all how your complete list of rape risk factors is helpful for anyone.

    Sign

  12. 62

    It’s a hell of a lot more helpful than teaching women a rain dance of behaviors to avoid that don’t actually keep them from getting raped, but curtail their freedom to do things that men get to do without consequences or being blamed if something bad happened to them.

  13. 63

    Additionally, yes, since consent is the primary factor in determining whether or not someone is being raped, nobody wants or expects to be raped. That much should be obvious, yes?

  14. 64

    It’s a hell of a lot more helpful than teaching women people a rain dance of behaviors to avoid.

    But you are – you’re saying people should avoid being within fucking distance of a person that they do not know is a rapist until the rapist begins to rape them. And since everyone is Schrodinger’s rapist, that pretty much circumscribes what sort of behaviour is risk free behaviour, and it dramatically curtails personal freedom.

    So I’m still missing how your complete list of risk factors is helpful. It just seems glib. Well intended, perhaps justifiably exasperated, but mostly glib.

    Additionally, yes, since consent is the primary factor in determining whether or not someone is being raped, nobody wants or expects to be raped. That much should be obvious, yes?

    Oh I agree, consent is definitely the primary factor in determining whether or not someone is being raped. But up until the moment when consent becomes the determining factor, a person doesn’t know if she/he’s within fucking distance of a rapist.
    But I see what you’re saying – you’re saying the primary risk factor is being within fucking distance of a person who is touching you without your consent. Which seems an awful lot like saying the primary factor for rape is being raped (i.e. being touched without your consent). Which, um, is a pretty silly thing to say – unless you’re given to mansplaining – which I actually don’t think you are. Which leaves me wondering, what the heck were you thinking?

    I dunno. Maybe you’d like to just reconsider whether your list really is comprehensive or whether it could be more helpful.

  15. 65

    No, my use of “women” there was intentional. Nobody teaches men to avoid drinking too much lest they get raped. Nobody teaches men that if they wear something tight-fitting that it’s their fault if they were raped. Nobody teaches men to avoid any sort of behaviour at all.

  16. 66

    p.s., FWIW, I’ve been reading your blog for only a few months but I absolutely enjoy it. I appreciate your thoughtfulness and the degree to which you put yourself out there both in your posts and in your replies to what others have written. I always look forward to your new posts, and particularly the ones you file under gender and privilege headings. Also, living in Canada as I do, I especially appreciate the Canadian content.

  17. 67

    And that’s actually the point. Lists of behaviours to avoid do not keep you from being raped. The only behaviour you could evince to make certain you’re not raped is to avoid all people, because without the presence of a rapist, you won’t get raped. Because you CAN’T know in advance who’s a rapist, you CAN’T avoid being raped. But you CAN flip the narrative so the onus of responsibility for ending rape is making certain that would-be rapists who simply don’t know any better actually understand that a lack of clear, enthusiastic consent is what makes sex rape. By doing that, you demonstrably reduce instances of rape.

  18. 68

    Gyatso, you might be missing some context here: Jason is responding to a more or less constant stream of rape apologetics from various atheist/skeptic community members, wherein they rattle on about how it’s only common sense that women should watch their drinks, and not go in dark parking lots, or leave their house unburka’d. In that context, arguing against the victim-blaming aspects of rape culture, this post makes perfect sense: the single and only risk factor that every single rape has in common is that there was a rapist or rapists present. Period, end of sentence, fin.

    That it is not useful as a rape-prevention heuristic for women is the point. There isn’t anything women can do to prevent rape, because most rape isn’t committed by women, and the victims can’t be blamed for not knowing there was a rapist present. At best, we can divert it so some other woman suffers, because we were walking confidently, wearing a gi and looking badass, with our keys in our hands and staying to lighted areas. Which does nothing to prevent rape, because the rapist still exists.

    The post is meant to put the focus where it belongs: on the people responsible for the problem, namely rapists. Therefore, if we want to prevent rape, then we need to focus on those responsible. Who are not the victims, obviously.

  19. 69

    Gyatso: that’s why this post is “The risk factors for being raped”. It’s an (accurate) answer to the wrong question, the question you’re still asking: what are women supposed to do to avoid being raped?

    When the question ought to be: how can we, as individuals and society, stop rapists?

    And that question does have answers, one of the biggest being to stop assuming rapes just come about because of what the VICTIM did or didn’t do.

  20. 70

    Yeah, I wrote this post totally recognizing that there’s a lot more reading between the lines (well, line) to get my point necessary when I get all compact like this. It’s sort of a post that requires all the context that came around it, that I omitted purposefully.

    Trust me, I’m no stranger to getting verbose. Normally this would have come at the end of a thousand word post at minimum. But I felt this would have the most immediate impact.

  21. 71

    Gyatso, have another read of this, from #64:

    But up until the moment when consent becomes the determining factor, a person doesn’t know if she/he’s within fucking distance of a rapist.
    But I see what you’re saying – you’re saying the primary risk factor is being within fucking distance of a person who is touching you without your consent. Which seems an awful lot like saying the primary factor for rape is being raped (i.e. being touched without your consent).

    That is all accurate. Given that it’s accurate, what would you suggest be done about it?

  22. 72

    as a tangent, to Jason #65: it turns out that in men’s prisons, rapists who rape other prisoners use exactly the same sort of victim-blaming after the fact. ‘The new guy was prancing around in tight pants so we knew he wanted it’ BS. In the military, it’s ‘he didn’t act macho enough, that means he’s gay and he wanted it’ if they bother to come up with an excuse at all. “The dog ate my homework” is more likely to be a valid excuse.

  23. 73

    No, my use of “women” there was intentional.

    Alright, so what you meant was that the primary risk factor for rape for women (i.e. not just anybody) is to avoid being within fucking distance of a rapist. Fair enough – but that doesn’t resolve the problems I pointed out with regard to what you wrote.

    And neither does pointing out the general truth that men are privileged because they do not grow up worrying about how they dress or how inebriated they can safely get (i.e. without ending up getting raped – which makes me wonder, what for men is the primary risk factor for rape – or is there more than one, and if so, why?) make your list of rape risk factors anymore helpful.

    I’m just sorry, but it doesn’t. But that’s alright, I trust people can figure out for themselves whether it’s helpful or not.

    (and even though I probably don’t need to say it, I do think it is a crime and a tragedy that anyone anywhere should ever fear for their well being in the presence of family, friends, acquaintances or strangers. My own belief is that everyone, but perhaps especially boys and young men, need to be taught how to empathize with others, to value compassion, and hold respect for oneself and others in high esteem – which definitely entails coming to a conviction with regard to the importance of consent).

  24. 74

    No, I did not mean that the primary risk factor ONLY for women is to avoid rapists. It’s also the primary risk factor for men. The difference is, women are being told to do and not-do a lot of things and none of it works. Men are not being told much of anything, and they’re still getting raped too. In lower proportions, mind you, but still, they’re still being raped. Take this pictorial set of examples, for instance: http://www.buzzfeed.com/spenceralthouse/male-survivors-of-sexual-assault-quoting-the-people-who-a

    So you teach everyone about consent. That’s the solution. That’s the only way to make inroads on this.

    Meanwhile this list was never meant to be more helpful toward the end of avoiding rape than other lists. It was meant to be a more realistic depiction of the risk factors, and explain exactly why such lists are useless. It was meant to undercut other such lists because the very idea of there being risk factors that increase the likelihood of your being raped is wrong prima facie. And the reason they’re wrong prima facie is because the only risk factor is uncontrollable by you unless you withdraw from society entirely.

  25. 75

    God – the speed of the internet.

    I have to eat lunch in a moment. Want to point out that my last post @73 was being composed before posts 67 – 73 were posted (or, while they were being posted. No doubt by the time I finish this there wil be more.

    So, Jason @67 & 70 – I appreciate this answer, though need to read it more carefully before replying. Just want to acknowledge receipt.

    CatieCat@68 Yes, I am aware of the context – but perhaps lack the familiarity with Jason’s thought-page process to read his OP the same way a long-time reader would.

    Pteryxx@ 71 – good question; short answer in @73

  26. 76

    – which makes me wonder, what for men is the primary risk factor for rape –

    Being near a rapist.

    That’s basically it. Being near fellow prisoners, fellow members of the military, fellow frat brothers, teammates, coaches, priests, teachers, scout leaders, older relatives, or friends who want to rape and don’t care what the guy has to say about it. It’s not that different for men except for the gendered social pressures.

  27. 77

    Do you think that teaching rapists not to rape would stop them from raping?

    I think teaching PEOPLE not to rape would result in fewer PEOPLE becoming rapists. Rapists are not a separate species. Sorry to state the obvious, but it seems there’s a surprising number of people who haven’t got the memo yet.

  28. 78

    @ Giliell, professional cynic -Ilk- and Pteryxx

    What a set of strawmen! You both misrepresent my view so badly that you don’t really deserve reply. How about rereading what I have written and try not to put me into your imagined pigeonhole.

    Why should I reply to you when you don’t really read or try to understand what I’m saying? Instead you are focusing on incomprehensible, unconstructive and completely useless rage.

    I know what is typical rape, but less untypical rapes means less total rapes.
    And I agree with your study sources with exception of how Kate Allen interpreted the data. I don’t think the data is capable to support such conclusion.

  29. 81

    Jason @67, 70 & 74

    Thanks for clarifying your intention in 67, 70 and 74. Clearly context is useful. Even essential. My reading of your original post was that you were proposing a serious analogue to the imminently useful Rape Prevention Advice: “Men/People, don’t rape.” But actually you weren’t (although you do agree with that advice, as do I). You were being ironic or wry or just “compact.” In any event, I agree with you right up to these lines in 74:

    It was meant to undercut other such lists because the very idea of there being risk factors that increase the likelihood of your being raped is wrong prima facie. And the reason they’re wrong prima facie is because the only risk factor is uncontrollable by you unless you withdraw from society entirely.

    I’m not sure what you mean, so let me ask a clarifying question: why are you saying “wrong prima facie”? as opposed to just “wrong”?

  30. 82

    Caiticat @68,

    Thanks Caiticat. Your comment and what Jason wrote in 67, 70, and 74 was helpful with regard to appreciating Jason’s original intent.

  31. 86

    @ Jason Thibeault
    This is absolutely unbelievable. Where did I say there is something wrong with the information behind the links!?

    When I use words “you” or “you both” I don’t refer to links, I refer to people!

    Also how did you miss me saying “I agree with your study sources…” ?

    You guys have so strong preconceived notions that you are literally unable to read correctly.

    I give up, this is completely hopeless.

  32. 87

    You said there was rage and strawmen. I asked you to point them out. You’re here having, apparently, a meltdown because of that request. If anything’s hopeless here, it’s showing you that this problem is not a simple one of “bad people” and “good people”, “monsters” and “saints”. Just… PEOPLE.

  33. 88

    @ Jason Thibeault
    Can you get this? Think very hard and read them at least twice:
    I never said there are rage and strawmen in the links.
    I said there are rage and strawmen in the replies directed to me.

  34. 90

    This is my final reply for the reasons I gave earlier (that you didn’t read).

    Here is example of rage and strawmen in same package.
    Rage part should be obvious (but in here it’s probably not), and the strawmen part is due; I have never claim rapes are caused by women making bad decisions. That is just twisted false interpretation what I’m (in vain) trying to say.

    See, that’s what makes me want to yell at my computer screen. Rape is not in any way caused by women “making bad decisions”.

  35. 91

    Yes, people suggesting repeatedly that women’s decisions have any impact on whether or not they might get raped — with the one exception of withdrawing from society entirely — kind of make me want to yell at my computer screen too.

  36. 92

    And just so you know, what I referred to — the pile of links that both Pteryxx and Giliell gave you — as “that pile of links” did in fact include all the text around them, and I was not saying there was rage and strawmen within the links themselves.

    I understand that English may not be your first language, and that nuance might be lost on you. So far, language seems to be the biggest barrier between us understanding one another, and I don’t know how much of it is because we’re speaking the same language differently.

  37. 93

    Jussi

    What a set of strawmen! You both misrepresent my view so badly that you don’t really deserve reply. How about rereading what I have written and try not to put me into your imagined pigeonhole.

    Why should I reply to you when you don’t really read or try to understand what I’m saying? Instead you are focusing on incomprehensible, unconstructive and completely useless rage.

    You know, when apparently nobody’s getting you, have you considered the possibility that you might not be expressing yourself well?
    And seriously, if “it makes me want to yell at my screen” is rage to you*, you might try to understand why people are angry. Which I wasn’t much before but am getting now because right now you’re crossing the line from “decent but uneducated person” territory into “entitled dudebro who throws a tantrum because people didn’t applaud him for all those original things they never heard before”.
    But let’s get back to angry: Yes, people, especially men characterising women walking somewhere in the dark as “bad decisions on part of the victim” make me angry, because it shows that they have zero understanding about wyh women walk some place alone after dark.
    People talking about rape being done by “bad men” make me angry, because I’ve heard “he can’t have raped her, he’s a good guy” too often.
    People talking about rapists being “mentally ill” make me angry because I’m mentally ill but I don’t have any urges to ignore somebody’s consent and violate their bodily autonomy.

    *rage, I don’t think it means what you think it means. Because as anger goes “yell at my screen” is probably one of the mildest things I’ve got

  38. 94

    Quick poll, who teach you not to rape and how many you raped before the education?

    Quick answer: I learned, starting in junior-high, from parents, teachers and news, that sex is supposed to be CONSENSUAL, and that coercive or other non-consensual sex is harmful and considered wrong. And since I learned this at a rather early age, of course I didn’t rape anyone beforehand — I wasn’t big enough to do it. I had tried my hand at bullying at an earlier age, but didn’t really get away with it much.

    Any other stupid-assed “quick polls” you need me to waste time with?

  39. 95

    Quick poll, who teach you not to rape and how many you raped before the education?

    Answer: Feminists (here at FTB), and me.

    Growing up, no one bothered to teach me anything about consent. In the (patriarchal religious) community I was raised in, it reinforced that women were there to serve men. No court in the country would convict me, and the girl herself, raised in the same toxic environment, probably wouldn’t call it rape either. But there was no clear, enthusiastic consent. It was expected of her, so she did it. It was rape.

    Mine is not a unique experience. Sure, there probably isn’t anyone who will learn they shouldn’t rape random women in dark alleys, if you are that kind of person, education isn’t your problem. But there is a shit-tonne of people who need to to learn what consent means, and what rape really is. And I resisted it for ages, because it meant I had to admit what I had done. And dog knows I didn’t want to do that. But I respect the people here, they have taught me a lot about just how fucked up I was, and if I want to be their ally, and I do, I have to be willing to shut up, stop being an asshole, and learn.

    The list of risk factors is correct. Keeping women locked up indoors, under wraps is not a solution. Teaching people not to rape is.

  40. 96

    Songs like you are blaming those who were around rapists as responsible for their rape.

    “No shit you got raped, what do you think was going to happen, hanging around a rapist”

  41. 98

    http://hoydenabouttown.com/20131022.15319/advising-women-to-prevent-their-own-rapes-is-not-brave-or-edgy-or-helpful

    Rape prevention advice aimed at potential victims protecting themselves has failed to prevent rapists raping people for centuries, because such advice is essentially a manual for rapists of how to get away with plausibly denying that what they did was rape, full of guidelines for how to inveigle themselves into flying under the “commonsense” mythically-flawed “potential rapist” radar. We all know people who did everything “right” and were raped anyway, and people who did everything “wrong” and who have never been raped. The one common factor in whether a rape happens is being in the presence of someone who is willing to rape, and the two major factors that make potential offenders less willing to rape are

    when the ignorant learn that what they thought was not-rape actually is rape/sexual assault, and they decide to ensure that they have clear consent in future;

    when the predatory believe that they are less likely to get away with excusing their rape-perpetration as not-really-rape, because bystanders and facilitators and victims have become less ignorant about and less tolerant of non-consensual sexual exploitation, thus protective interventions are more likely, reports to police are more likely, prosecutions are more likely, and convictions are more likely.

  42. 99

    Jimmy:
    Are you aware that there is no advice that women could follow that would reduce rape?
    “Dont walk alone at night”-what about women who get raped walking alone during the day?
    “Dont drink alcohol/get drunk”-what the women or children who have never touched alcohol, but still get raped?
    “Only socialize with people you know or trust”- what about the women raped by their husband/partner/lover or best friend?

    If a woman gets raped at work/church/supermarket, what advice should she, or other womn follow to avoid getting raped? Not go to work/church/supermarket?

    All of that advice is useless bc women get raped at home or church or supermarket or work.
    Women get raped whether they got super passout drunk or have never consumed alcohol.
    Women get raped by people they know and love.

    My point is that no advice directed at women will ever work.

    Why?
    1- if you can get raped at any location, by someone of any degree of familiarity, whether you drink or not, no matter how much or little you wear
    all this advice amounts to saying women should never participate in society. They should just go live individual, solitary lives.
    Not only is that a downright stupid idea, it is an impossibly stupid idea.

    Jason’s point is that there is no way for women to know what a rapist looks like. Rapists are not some offshoot of humanity identifiable by some characteristic. They are [largely] men, many of whom are unaware the assault they commited was rape. Many of these rapists do not understand consent or bodily autonomy.

    Therein lies the answer.
    People that rape need to understand these concepts.
    More importantly, across the world, children must be taught these concepts. Not in one single conversation, but in ongoing discussions.

  43. 100

    Yes, people suggesting repeatedly that women’s decisions have any impact on whether or not they might get raped — with the one exception of withdrawing from society entirely — kind of make me want to yell at my computer screen too.

    This is an absurd work of art in grey-tones. You’ve got some black, a dash of white and, well… that’s all.

    You are claiming the following:

    – with the exception of withdrawing from society entirely, a woman’s decisions have no impact on the chances of her getting raped.

    This argument is so ridiculously black-and-white, such an absurd generalisation, that I find it hard to believe some people actually think like this. If, however, I were to give you the benefit of the doubt, I would probably say something along the lines of:

    Why would you insist on focussing on women here? Well, when we look at the statement again, we can say that what you are saying here is –

    – women are victims
    – thinking about reducing their risk of rape is useless

    You’re not saying people are victims or we’re all victims, you’re saying that women are victims and that thinking about how to minimise your risk of being a victim to rape (or any crime for that matter) is pointless.

    The first implied statement (women are victims) is poisonous to society, whether you intended it to be or not. You chose to focus on women, when there was little reason not to use the more general term ‘people’. This is indicative of your general stance on things.

    The second statement was not implied, but overtly stated – thinking about reducing risk of rape is useless. This is objectively false, but if you really (really?) think this, you should contact RAINN (Rape, Abuse & Incest National Network). These are people, whose business is informing people about rape, supporting and advising victims of rape, giving advice on rape-prevention and much more.

    While you can never completely protect yourself from sexual assault, there are some things you can do to help reduce your risk of being assaulted.

    They have a whole list of things you can do to minimise your risk of rape. For example:

    Try to avoid isolated areas. It is more difficult to get help if no one is around.

    That sounds a little bit like a dark alley doesn’t it.

    Don’t allow yourself to be isolated with someone you don’t trust or someone you don’t know.

    That sounds a little bit like prison, doesn’t it?

    These are direct quotes. By your words, this is enraging at the very least. What’s even worse, is these malicious fuckers have purposefully gone out of their way to misinform women nationwide, telling them, not that they are victims, but that there are things that they can do to minimise the chances of getting raped. The nerve. Surely this would be the alien queen that needs to be taken down to cripple the hive of rape culture? Right?

    They’re the real rape culture, right? – the people who are empowering women nationwide with real support and advice. You’re the heroes, the people telling everyone (especially women and themselves) that they are victims to the big bad world, and there’s nothing they can do about it themselves. But maybe, with the help of feminists like yourselves (without you, they’d be nothing) they can set up campaigns to tell the big bad world not to be so big and bad any more.

    Do you people really not see why people like Jussi get fed up of you? Society is choking on your bullshit. We don’t need or want you. The world has no use for emotionally-fuelled sophistry.

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