Wanted to throw this on the blog for a few days now, but it’s been… busy. Over at Google+, it seems the only people who engage with my linking back to various websites are the MRAs and antifeminists who probably make up the majority of the early-adopters of the technology.
I had posted a link to Chris Clarke’s thoughts on the latest skeptical sexism imbroglio, and the only answers I got were from one guy who was entirely disinterested in engaging with the points I attempted to make in a pithy, I-don’t-have-time-for-fisking-this kind of way.
Seriously, it’s a hell of a gish gallop. You should see it.
Allen HildebrandtJun 13, 2012I think this is a trivialization of the issue men have with the topic. You’re likely correct that there are bad actors in the argument, name callers, people who attack the women making the claim.
However, whether or not the claim is just and fair isn’t ever really addressed. From the arguments I’ve been in with people, it isn’t so much as an assumption that all the men are guilty, it’s that the argument is that all men should be treated as potentially guilty, that the perspective of the person claiming victim is the only one that matters and the harm that it does is irrelevant so long as the woman involved is protected from harm.
Watson was unfair, both for posting what she did as well as having the expectation that men should behave in a specific manner that only considers her comfort. As I said then, she’s perfectly welcome to be uncomfortable… but just because crimes occur doesn’t give anyone the right to treat every man as if he were a criminal and publically shame him because he didn’t technically do anything illegally wrong.Jason ThibeaultJun 13, 2012EditThat’s terribly reductionist of any of the argument, considering Watson is ONE ACTOR IN IT. She is not even a focal point, except how the anti-Watson brigade make her that.
But your worry that women might potentially have something to fear from “all men” stems from a culture that practically protects rapists from justice. So do something about that, so we men might be reasonably trusted.Jason ThibeaultJun 13, 2012EditIn other words, I think you’re making a terribly trivializing argument and you’re co-opting the whole thing as “men vs women” when here’s a man right here who’s done more for men’s rights than most, who thinks you’re not doing the arguments justice and Chris Clarke’s thoughts are spot-on.Allen HildebrandtJun 13, 2012Am I correct in parsing that last sentence in your previous post as implicit sanctioning of men not being trusted?
Trust should be the default mode, don’t bring to an interaction anything that it doesn’t warrant. Implicit sexism swings both ways, and the implicit assumption that men should be treated as untrustworthy is an unacceptable position to take when trying to discuss the subject. It taints a persons arguments in noticeable ways.
I would wager that about a third of the men who are being tossed in the same basket as the people who are misogynistic aren’t. They just want men to be talked about fairly, treated fairly and not have to be treated like everything is always their fault.
You’re correct that Watson isn’t a focal point, the Elevator situation is just one of myriad examples of situations where no harm occurred but are being used as examples of unacceptable behavior. People make mistakes, treat people with the common damn courtesy of accepting that we’re all sometimes lonely and don’t always think about our own situation and how things might come across.
Humility and tolerance is exactly what this controversy lacks, on both sides of the aisle, men and women alike.Jason ThibeaultJun 13, 2012EditAllen HildebrandtJun 13, 2012You do realize that saying “People like you” bunches me in with people that I probably have not as much in common as you are currently, at the time of this conversation, you believe I do?
Misandry isn’t an acceptable position, and allowing some to participate in misandry in order to win some good favor from the misandrists isn’t exactly productive. Just as humoring Misogyny isn’t.
Address my points, right or wrong, I’d prefer you to do that than to go to the “People like you” sentiment. At least by addressing my points, you’re being honest about the conversation.
As to your link, I read the link; Fear is not an acceptable response nor does it excuse sexist behavior. Likewise, tailoring your behavior to cater to everyone’s perceptions of how the world is isn’t doing them any favors, and it’s a form of deceit. I abhor deceit, even if it would win me friends, even if it’s the nice lies and the comforting ones. I’m familiar with the people who say, “If other people are uncomfortable with that, maybe you need to change your behavior” that is often the underlying root of bigotry lobbied against gays and lesbians… that they should behave in a way that society feels more comfortable with. Yet somehow, that’s supposed to be an acceptable way to treat half the population? It’s bad in one situation, but in THIS one it’s good?
I don’t accept that it is reasonable to treat men in the way some of these women treat them. It’s a justification for them to continue their distrustful and often hateful behavior towards men. Often men who’ve been thrashed and beaten by the same kinds of behaviors in the past for not being in any way a desirable potential partner. It’s an implicit justification for judging people based on their looks and not the content of their character.Jason ThibeaultJun 13, 2012EditYou’re exactly what I described in “people like you” — people who’ve lost the plot but still think they’re the reasonable ones. I’m lumping you in with people like you. Jebus.
If you’re not working to end rape culture, you’re screaming against a symptom of the disease, not the disease itself. You’re complaining of sniffles when the body of society has a killer flu. Fix rape culture, and you fix the unfair fear people have of men. It’s that simple, and it’s not misandry.
But thanks for handing me a blog post in those gish gallops of yours. I’m copying this onto my blog so others can see what kind of nonsense memetics fester around these parts.Allen HildebrandtJun 13, 2012So again, not addressing my points in any way, merely denegrating rather than discussing.
Wanting men to be treated fairly isn’t endorsing “Rape Culture”, whatever that might be. Just because a subsection of a group behaves in one way does not make it at all right for people to treat the entire group as if they are a subsection.