Jacqueline S. Homan, who blogs at godlessfeminist.wordpress.com, posted a comment on my post about why I’m not being nice to DJ Grothe, that really deserves to be its own top-level post. That’s just exactly how violently I agree with every word.
It never ceases to amaze me how all the MRA’s/PUA’s whose voices seem to dominate and drive the agendas and discussions in the atheist movement are screeching hysterically about “feminazis”, “false accusations”, blaming women for being the problem because of our “special interest” issues and instigating a “witch hunt”, when they’ve been the ones that relentlessly threatened and harassed Rebecca Watson for nearly a year for the “crime” of saying “guys, please don’t do that” (i.e. speaking up for her rights when Living While Female) and leveled some pretty ugly threats and insults at Greta Christina as well. Jason’s edit: and Ophelia Benson, and now to a staggering degree Stephanie Zvan.
And they claim that THEY are the targets of a “witch hunt?” Perspective, please.
This is against a nationwide backdrop of cruel and punitive laws that have stripped women and girls of our rights to access reliable birth control and abortion even in the event of rape, and which have criminalized women for having miscarriages and stillbirths and which have literally slapped women with cruel deaths from pregnancy complications in emergency rooms nationwide under the “Let Women Die” laws which absolve doctors, ER staff, et al, from criminal patient abandonment for letting pregnant women die from treatable fatal pregnancy complications rather than perform life-saving abortions — all in the name of “religious liberty.”
In nearly every state over the past decade, various “fetal homicide” laws were passed that have criminalized pregnant women for refusing unnecessary C-sections, and for having stillbirths and miscarriages without definitive proof whether their “lifestyles” during their pregnancies caused these negative pregnancy outcomes.
To date, over 300 women across the nation are either in prison or are sitting in jails pending adjudication for miscarriages and stillbirths — some like Rennie Gibbs of Mississippi who was sentenced to life imprisonment last July for a stillbirth she had at age 15. Over 60 women are in jail pending adjudication for stillbirths and miscarriages in Alabama alone.
These laws, which have elevated the “rights” of a fetus and subordinated those of its mother, are also costing pregnant women their lives in hospitals across the US.
The good ol’ boys complaining about “witch hunts” over being told that there should be anti-sexual harassment policies for their conferences and events wouldn’t know what a real witch hunt was if it hit them upside their collective snot-locker.
And if they think that all these laws specifically targeting women for invasive body policing and stripping us of our most basic of human rights, namely the right to life, bodily autonomy and bodily integrity, in a society saturated with rapists’ rights in a culture of impunity for men is merely “special interest issue” that the good ol’ boys — who will NEVER have to suffer an unwanted and/or medically dangerous pregnancy against their will and possibly die from it or end up incarcerated for any result that does not culminate in a healthy, bouncing baby — is all so unimportant, I wonder if their girlfriends, wives, mothers, sisters, daughters, nieces, and future potential sexual conquests and bed victims know just how irrelevant their lives are in the eyes of the movement’s privileged white maledom that somehow gets to decide for the rest of us what is a “witch hunt” and a “special interest issue” and what is not.
When 51% of the population who happens to be the most oppressed group here and across the world is told that the injustices and human rights violations committed against us don’t matter, that men have a right to an orgasm at our expense no matter the harm to us as a result, that is not a special interest issue. It is socially approved oppression, torture, cruelty, abuse, and a crime against humanity. The secular architects of the UN Convention on Torture and Article 7(g) of the Rome Statute in the ICC would agree.
Allow me to add the following:
Considering the nature of the scene in which Kane does this clap it might not be the best choice for use in a post supporting woman.
Okay, my memory of Citizen Kane is bad enough that it took Stephanie Zvan to point out that that scene was Orson Welles, not from Ed Wood like I thought.
It’s a fantastic movie you should watch it again. He was kinda of being hideous and controlling of his wife in that scene though.
The opera scene, right? When she bombs, and he’s like the only one clapping? Yeah, wrong message to send. So I changed it to Conan O’Brien.
Perhaps we now have our Four Horsewomen of the Feminist Apocalypse.
Is it terrible if I envision them riding out on My Little Ponies?
It is fine so long as they are trampling over the corpses of MRAs.
MRAs flee squalling from anything cute, girly or inclusive. My Little Ponies are the perfect war steeds. Also, that gives an excuse for Natalie to be a Horsewoman too. (Dunno how Sikivu feels about ponies…)
Obligatory.
Also, the Four Horsemen of the Atheist movement certainly weren’t necessarily the only ones worthy of the title (and in fact, I might have made a few other choices myself). I’m perfectly happy with the 4 Horsewomen being who they are — except that they already bear the brunt of the antifeminist hatred in the movement.
Pteryxx, I love you, but…
No gods. No heroes. And too damned much work for four people (which is why I’m so glad people like you help).
Eh. Forget “help”. I mean “work so damned hard”.
Jacqueline, one of the things that came up multiple times at the Women in Secularism conference is that a lot of atheist women have done exactly what you’ve done, chosen to work directly with other feminists on the problems religion props up. That’s a big part of the answer to “Where are the women?” Now we just need to figure out how to appropriately give those women credit in the atheist movement for the work they do.
Didn’t you hear though, Jacqueline? There’s a DEEEEEEP RIIIIIIIFT forming as a result of some of us thinking women are actually people, and worth listening to now and again. Hell, there’s probably one forming over racism too, considering the people petitioning PZ Myers to shut up Sikivu Hutchinson.
I kinda can’t help but think, good riddance. The Enlightenment will leave some people behind as a matter of course.
Thank you, Jason for putting my post up. And thank you for your support of women’s human rights in the atheist community. I say this on behalf of all the women, religious or atheist, here and abroad, whom are the targets of a real witch hunt, cloaked in the “respectable” habiliments of “morality” and the right to “freedom of religion.” Thank you. Seriously.
I am not new to the atheist movement as I am an atheist myself. But I have had to pick and choose my battles. With the War on Women being waged by the US Conference of Catholic Bishops, Tea Party reactionaries, and the Christian Right, it was a no-brainer for me.
I donated what little bit of money I had scrounged and scraped to Planned Parenthood — which had to close its doors in several states already due to defunding on top of anti-contraception and anti-abortion legislation, leaving many states with no Planned Parenthood clinic at all — hence leaving tens of millions of American women with no access to reliable contraception (including EC for rape victims who have been denied EC in the ER) or any other reproductive health care, including cancer screenings and, yes, abortion.
The War on Women is consuming a lot of women’s time and resources because our lives and our sisters’/nieces’/daughters’/best friends’ lives are at stake — literally. So I would like to add that there is no dearth of godless/atheist/skeptic women — many of us just happen to be in the trenches alongside “sisters” who do believe in a god, fighting together for ALL women’s basic human rights because if we don’t, no one else will.
And all of this is happening while women active in the atheist/skeptic community see their needs, rights, and concerns belittled and their contributions to the atheist movement erased, making women invisible.
In my humble opinion, those who have aimed their vitriolic misogyny at Stephanie, Rebecca, Greta, and Ophelia, made a real dumbass tactical move by lashing out at those women. They did not think about all the women who rarely post in these particular forums and who have not yet traveled to attend conferences, but who DO read and follow what’s going on very closely: including all the secular “debates” on whether or not women deserve basic human rights.
I compiled a 24-page medical/legal ethics Fact Sheet for every state level rally organizers in the Unite Against the War on Women. Not to brag, but it is a Hank Aaron, hit it out of the ballpark piece 🙂 It’s available on my blog site (click on my name) for anyone interested in checking it out to see what exactly is at stake.
Stephanie, I am afraid that giving atheist/skeptic/otherwise secular women credit in a movement dominated by MRA’s/PUA’s (who also lash out at our male allies like Jason and PZ Myers, for example)is rather paradoxical. We are the same atheist/skeptic women whom the good ol’ boys dominating the atheist/skeptic movement utterly loathe because we’re feminists — without apology. Because feminism is the radical notion that women are people, too.
In the feminist community, most of the atheist women like myself are among the tough-as-nails rad fem subgroup of the feminist community. (Or “rad scum”, if you prefer.)
You see, we are the very same women that guys like DJ, Richard Dawkins and countless other men in the atheist/skeptic community hate the most. The idea of crediting us with our contributions in fighting religious bigotry and religiously-justified and legalized misogyny is, for those guys, an anathema. I would not be surprised if those “usual suspects” would prefer to drink Drano rather than make us feel welcome us in the movement and at their conferences, much less credit us for what we do.
And the reason that there is so much anti-feminism in the atheist/skeptic community is because women are hated, pure and simple.
This phenomenon is not unique to the atheist/skeptic community. It is also prevalent among Leftist circles filled with white guys clamoring for social and economic justice, railing against capitalism — even though their legendary myopia prevents them from seeing that misogyny is the problem for the exploited and abused trafficked and prostituted women and kids, not capitalism per se. This is, I think, a result of the larger society being centered on male entitlement (we call this patriarchy). The micro mirrors the macro.
Sikivu Hutchinson is very well respected by feminists, particularly the rad fems like moi. 🙂 So are many other of our African “sisters” who are secular feminists at the forefront of fighting FGM and forced child marriages. And yes, we are ALL watching the way Sikivu Hutchinson is being treated. In fact, I am working on my 5th book, Invisible Nation, in which I will be treating this very situation (not as an atheist community problem per se, but as an example of how deeply women are hated in ALL subgroups and communities outside of the “rad scum” community).
Like I said before, the MRA’s/PUA’s in the atheist movement are either not thinking this through very well, or they are overly confident in society’s contempt for women being as fashionable as they think it is (which, as you can see, it is becoming less fashionable as more women became radicalized by the War on Women).
It has also not escaped women’s notice how conspicuously absent our secular “brethren” from the atheist community were at the April 28th rallies protesting nationwide against the War on Women. Women notice. And we have long memories. 🙂
(Oops. I forgot to add), and likewise, we also notice who our allies are. PZ Myers and yourself may be made persona non grata by the MRA/PUA dominant element in the atheist/skeptic community, but you both have earned a very respected place in the feminist community. Women remember who are friends are.
Stephanie: I hear you. I just meant the Four Horsewomen remark/meme as a sort of ironic counterpart to this sentiment:
I don’t know much about how the Four Horsemen of Atheism meme came about or what it implies, but even I can see that the women who took point on these issues were essentially singled out *by enemies* instead of by self-aggrandizement. I intended it as badge of honor.
Actually, in this particular instance one telling note is that the male allies have not been addressed much, if at all. The focus of DJ Grothe and supporters has been almost exclusively on Stephanie, Greta, Ophelia and Rebecca.
(But I know full well what goes on at ERV, don’t worry.)
I only use “rad scum” to refer to the specific subset of radfems who are really really transphobic. But, to each their own.
Also, I don’t think the MRA/PUA element is as dominant as it looks; it is merely, like the libertarian/right-wing element, extremely loud and taking advantage of lots of silence. Religion is only one sacred cow; the next two are probably politics and social justice respectively.
Well, Setar, the Elf Sheriff, you taught me something new about the term “rad scum” that I previously did not know about. Anti-feminist men (MRA’s/PUA’s in particular) call all radical feminists “rad scum”, regardless of whether we’re trans-friendly or not. Those guys just plain hate feminists. That particular subset of men (in the larger society, not necessarily the atheist community per se) have even referred to non-feminist identifying women as “rad scum” the minute a woman says that rape victims should have rights and that women deserve an equal opportunity for good-paying jobs and an advanced education.
I’m planning to do a cartoon of the six Horsewomen (Sikivu, Natalie, Greta Christina, Ophelia, Rebecca and Stephanie) on their MLP mounts (Twilight Sparkle, Rainbow Dash, Rarity, Fluttershy, Pinkie Pie and Applejack).
If you/they have any thoughts as to which woman should have which steed, please let me know. You can contact me on my screenname at hotmail.
Oooh, also, which item of weaponry each woman should be wielding.
Thank you Jason.
You’re totally going to link that, right? cuz Pie.
Natalie – Fluttershy
Rebecca – Pinkie
Greta – Twilight
Stephanie – hm, Applejack
Ha, that is so weird, I had already totally put Nat as Fluttershy and Rebecca as Pinkie. I thought Greta as Rainbow Dash though, and Ophelia as Twilight. Sikivu as Rarity and as Stephanie didn’t want to be included, I thought Jen as Applejack?
I have already started designing it, but, er, I’m at work, and weirdly my bosses frown on me drawing ponies and awesomely tooled up ladies while working.
Thanks for the twin daggers suggestion, X, that would be great!
Taslima gets some pretty fucking disgusting comments too. Some of her posts have been pretty much identical to Jacqueline’s comments, and the abuse and condescension meted out to her, in return, is appalling.
She’s done posts about FGM, only to be given the standard war-cry of “WHAT ABOUT TEH MENZ???” So the other day she posted about routine infant circumcision. The response? “IT’S ALL BECAUSE OF WOMEN AND FEMINISM!”
She deserves a pony with MRA-stomping hooves too.
Oh and WRT the political situation, I could cry, in fact I have cried, for my American sisters. It’s devastating.
Phew, if I include Taslima, Maryam and Stephanie, I’m gonna run out of ponies!
embertine: Nah.
Well, there are always background ponies. Lots and lots of background ponies.
Luna?
@embertine – think of how glorious the end result would be, a horde of glorious warriors!
In fact, I’d love to see all the warriors and their mounts in ‘My Little Pony-Feminism is Mighty’.
Ooh I feel giddy just bloody thinking about it!
A nym, THAT is amazing.
I’m gonna need a bigger bit (of paper)
Embertine, I’m reliably informed Natalie uses twin daggers!
embertine
Jen! Don’t forget Jen!
Pteryxx wrote…
One would think so. However, the existence of MRA “bronies” proves this to be wrong.
http://manboobz.com/2012/04/29/strange-discovery-of-the-day-mens-rights-bronies/
http://manboobz.com/2012/05/08/mens-rights-bronies-part-2-the-piggening/
Tabby Lavalamp: bleargh. Well, there’s always some vermin resistant to *everything*…
@Jacqueline S. Homan #16:
You’re an actual honest to Thor radical feminist?!?! First off, I was almost convinced that radical feminists were a myth**, considering all the talk from the MRAs about it and the almost complete lack of any actually radical statement from feminists that I’ve seen. Plus, you haven’t threatened to castrate anyone! 🙂
Great comment about the whole witch hunt nonsense. There’s an actual War on Women going on, and the stupidity of dismissing it while complaining about not being able to treat women like objects at conventions and such is mind-boggling.
**Unlike all this talk about “My Little Pony”. Everyone knows ponies aren’t real.
IJ: You mean Ponies ARE real. Right? *glare*
Jacqueline @21 (and Setar): yes, there’s a very large subsection of radical feminism who consider trans girls “not real women” and shun them and slur them and otherwise consider their plights not “real”. There’s a bunch of examples at RadFemHub I guess. Natalie Reed would almost certainly know where.
On Twitter, I had retweeted someone saying “I pledge to never be part of any feminism that shuns trans rights, retweet to ‘sign'” or something to that effect. Greta Christina retweeted it, and my @-replies just filled after that with people retweeting Greta. It’s great to know there are so many feminists who understand trans rights intersect heavily. And I’m glad you’re evidently one of them. 🙂
Thank you for your kind words, by the way. I’m not doing any of this for the “cookie” of approval, but in light of some of the trolling I’ve received recently, it does feel rather gratifying.
No Jason… Santa Claus and Jesus and ponies and the “planet” Neptune aren’t real. Hate to break the news to you. 🙂
The irony is staggering.
In any case, Rebecca Watson’s drama would be a problem if she had any talent.
(She doesn’t.)
Sorry, what does your post have to do with Pakistan again, Support Vector?
Nothing.
But I’m not running around acting like I’m a modern-day knight-errant, am I?
Just pointing out your failure, present and future, to live up to this narcissistic image you’ve made for yourself.
Nothing.
But I’m not running around acting like I’m a modern-day knight-errant, am I?
Just pointing out your failure, present and future, to live up to this revoltingly narcissistic image you’ve made for yourself.
There’s quite a difference.
You just said that. Stop morphing.
Yeah how about something else?
Jason and his squadriste are caught being baldly inconsistent about the issue of prioritizing.
He responds with a lolcat.
Well played, sir.
Mostly because I don’t have to. You’re making my point. Over and over and over again. And I’m quite happy to let you keep doing it.
It is a weird semi-meta thing, isn’t it? The people who are part of the problem demonstrate that they are part of the problem in their comments dismissing or downplaying or distracting from the problem. I’ve always heard “when you’re in a hole, stop digging” but I guess the MRA version is “when you’re in a hole, rent an industrial excavator.”