Thirteen year old black kid gunned down while taking out trash by white neighbor

Unbelievable that this is happening again, in the wake of Trayvon Martin’s shooting. You’d think it would have been an object lesson in “children are not a clear and present danger”! And yet, somehow, I expect the white supremacists to dig through this thirteen year old’s history to find something with which to convince everyone he’s some sort of thug.

A 75-year-old Milwaukee man charged in the fatal shooting of a 13-year-old boy who lived next door had been a repeated target of break-ins, according to neighbors.
[…]
According to the complaint, Spooner approached Simmons as the boy retrieved a garbage cart from in front of a house Thursday morning. The boy’s mother, Patricia Larry, who saw the shooting, said Spooner told her son he “wanted his stuff back and that he wanted his shotguns back,” the complaint said.

Simmons and his mother told Spooner they did not have his property. Spooner then pulled a gun, pointed it at Simmons and fired one shot from about five feet away, the complaint said.

Spooner fired a second shot at Simmons as the boy was running away, according to the complaint. An autopsy found the boy suffered a gunshot wound to his chest, and the bullet damaged the ventricles of his heart before exiting his back. Police recovered a weapon as well as two spent casings.

That’s cowboy justice for you. Accuse someone of something, when they say “I didn’t do it”, shoot them. Twice. I bet if he kept that strategy up, if he wasn’t arrested, eventually he would have murdered the real thief. You know, he might have had to gun down half the town to do it, but his justice would be served.

This is a damn good reason for gun control, because think of the kids. No, no, not the kids who might accidentally shoot themselves with the guns — the black kids that’ll be murdered for being black and being convenient to a person with a gun and a grudge. And by gun control I mean “don’t give guns to racist assholes who don’t value human life”.

Thirteen year old black kid gunned down while taking out trash by white neighbor

91 thoughts on “Thirteen year old black kid gunned down while taking out trash by white neighbor

  1. 52

    It’s not like he was shooting at someone on his property, or someone who he had reason to think was in the process of robbing him.

    Neither of which would have been justified, either. Even if it is legal in some backward places, using lethal force to protect property is not, in my opinion, remotely reasonable. Unless the person is in the process of physically attacking you (or someone else), you don’t get to shoot them merely for breaking into your house.

    Of course, such a situation would be an extenuating circumstance compared to the topic of this article, which is clearly outright murder.

  2. 53

    The news items don’t say the time other than morning, but judging by how many people were awake and heard it, and that it’s June, this almost certainly happened during daylight. Spooner saw Simmons in a fully lit area and knew the boy was no threat, lacking both weaponry and size.

    There are absolutely no excuses for Spooner’s actions, but you can be damned sure some scumbag will try to make some. Filth like Limbaugh will inevitably try to make Spooner a cause célèbre and try to portray him as the “victim” (e.g. “Why was that black boy in a white neighborhood at that hour if not to steal something?”).

  3. 54

    “Hang on a sec,

    This kid gets shot in the chest from 5 feet away and manages to run off?”

    And? Getting shot does not mean that you stop what you’re doing and drop right there. The medical literature is full of cases of people continuing to function after receiving fatal injuries.

  4. 55

    Carlie – As I’d said, the way he crime is treated is very likely to be affected by race, but there is no real sign that the crime itself was motivated by it. I just don’t think it’s a good idea to focus on race to the extent that it becomes the center of everything. Some people give little consideration to race when dealing with others.

    Actually, something I found interesting in Steve’s statistics was that whites are about 20-40 times more likely to kill other whites than to kill a black (To use the notation of the statistics). Which is about 5 times higher than would be expected even without discrimination. While this is probably because they tend to associate more with their own race, it certainly doesn’t imply that a lot of white people are attacking black people in hate crimes (it also doesn’t prove that they aren’t), which you seem to be suggesting.

    Maybe I’m naive, maybe the data is no good. I just don’t think it’s wise to assume every time an interracial murder happens, that the race is a major part of it (it certainly is sometimes, but not always).

  5. 56

    Sids: that isn’t the entirety of the racism though. It’s that the black family whose thirteen year old kid was just gunned down was treated like criminals, while the man who gunned the kid down is treated like he’s “got a burden”.

    That’s pretty fucked up. And by all accounts, not uncommon for that area. This is a very racially charged locale we’re talking about here.

  6. 57

    In terms of how they were treated by the press (and others), I absolutely agree. If the victim was white, it would have be done very differently. My gripe was only with implications that race was the cause of the crime itself. It may have been (quite likely), but there was nothing I could see to support that assertion.

    Besides that, I’m right with you.

  7. 59

    Simmons was shot once in the chest with his hands raised. He ran to escape and collapsed at the corner, while Spooner attempted to shoot him in the back, and tried to fire a third shot.

    That is not a fucking burdened person. this is someone who went after the kid like a fucking movie slasher.

  8. 60

    Gun laws basically only restrict law-abiding citizens (good guys). Criminals (bad guys) don’t care about the law, they will get guns one way or another. And if they can’t find a gun, they’ll figure out another way to harm others. A steak knife used in an assault will do far greater damage to a person than a handgun, but that doesn’t mean we should pass any legislation to limit the use of steak knives.

  9. 61

    Gun laws basically only restrict law-abiding citizens (good guys).

    Which is why, for instance, Poland’s high level of street crime translates into a high level of violence.

    Oh wait.

    Criminals (bad guys) don’t care about the law, they will get guns one way or another.

    Only if the guns are actually there to be obtained. If it’s just not realistically possible to get guns, guns will mostly be in the hands of organized crime and the military. This kinda shit, like with Trayvon? Wouldn’t happen with sane gun control laws. For that to be meaningful in the USA though, it’d have to be federally enacted. STate borders are too porous.

    A steak knife used in an assault will do far greater damage to a person than a handgun, but that doesn’t mean we should pass any legislation to limit the use of steak knives.

    Which is why militaries make a habit of relying on knives, and backburnering guns.

    …oh wait.

  10. 62

    Which is why, for instance, Poland’s high level of [gun control] translates into a high level of violence.

    Oh wait.

    The Czech Republic, which borders Poland to the Southwest, and has very similar gun laws to our own here in the U.S., actually has a lower crime rate than Poland. Czech: 178 prisoners per 100k people, Poland: 210 prisoners per 100k people.

    Only if the guns are actually there to be obtained. If it’s just not realistically possible to get guns, guns will mostly be in the hands of organized crime and the military. This kinda shit, like with Trayvon? Wouldn’t happen with sane gun control laws. For that to be meaningful in the USA though, it’d have to be federally enacted. STate borders are too porous.

    I’m sorry, but guns have already been invented. They exist. There are many of them, and they’re everywhere. There is absolutely no feasible way to eradicate them completely, and that’s what you’d have to do if you’d expect evil-doers not to have them.

    Which is why militaries make a habit of relying on knives, and backburnering guns.

    …oh wait

    A group of soldiers is a different beast than a single man. 1 man with 1 gun can only fire in 1 direction at a time. So, as logic dictates, to avoid being shot you would simply avoid being in the line of fire. A man with a knife, on the other hand, can use broad slashing motions and attack in many different directions.

    “There’s no such thing as a good gun. There’s no such thing as a bad gun. A gun in the hands of a bad man is a very dangerous thing. A gun in the hands of a good person is no danger to anyone except the bad guys.”

    -Charlton Heston

  11. 63

    A group of soldiers is a different beast than a single man. 1 man with 1 gun can only fire in 1 direction at a time. So, as logic dictates, to avoid being shot you would simply avoid being in the line of fire. A man with a knife, on the other hand, can use broad slashing motions and attack in many different directions.

    I know, right? I mean, that’s totally why Anders Breivik used knives in his killing spree. Right? Right?

  12. 64

    Tell me, what’s the relative range of a knife as opposed to a gun, any gun? All you have to do is stay what, three feet away from the person with the knife, right? Surely if it’s that simple to avoid being shot, it’s that simple to avoid being stabbed, right? RIGHT?

  13. 65

    The Czech Republic, which borders Poland to the Southwest, and has very similar gun laws to our own here in the U.S., actually has a lower crime rate than Poland. Czech: 178 prisoners per 100k people, Poland: 210 prisoners per 100k people.

    Probably, but I didn’t say a lack of gun access would lower the crime rate. What I said was that a lack of gun access would reduce violent crime rates. Poland was chosen specifically because of its high street crime rate, which contra to your assertion that criminals will get guns anyway, does not include a whole lot of violent crime, guns or otherwise.

    I mean yeah, their mafia has guns, but that doesn’t really translate into guns for the average thief.

    I’m sorry, but guns have already been invented. They exist. There are many of them, and they’re everywhere. There is absolutely no feasible way to eradicate them completely,

    They’re not everywhere, or you couldn’t point to Poland to say that guns lower the crime rate, while I couldn’t laugh in your face and point to Japan if you wanted to limit us to individuals. And you don’t have to eradicate them completely to prevent the overwhelming majority of criminals from having access to them. For fuck’s sake, does it not say something to you that the US has one of the highest rates of Manslaughter and Murder II?

    and that’s what you’d have to do if you’d expect evil-doers not to have them.

    Are you a fucking six year old? What the fuck is with all this talk of bad guys and good guys?

    A group of soldiers is a different beast than a single man. 1 man with 1 gun can only fire in 1 direction at a time. So, as logic dictates, to avoid being shot you would simply avoid being in the line of fire. A man with a knife, on the other hand, can use broad slashing motions and attack in many different directions.

    Okay, go fight a dude with a gun with a knife. This’ll be a great chance to prove that knives are more dangerous.

    “There’s no such thing as a good gun. There’s no such thing as a bad gun. A gun in the hands of a bad man is a very dangerous thing. A gun in the hands of a good person is no danger to anyone except the bad guys.”

    CHarleton Heston must think the world is comprised of White and Black hats. In the real world, generally good people do bad things all the time. They even fuck up, such as shooting family members thinking they were robbers.

  14. 67

    carlie says:
    June 5, 2012 at 7:25 pm AST
    I just told my kids about it, and they were horrified. And the 14 year old immediately said “that’s even worse than Trayvon Martin”. So at least they have that awareness, and that’s good for my small corner.

    When my eldest daughter was about 8 (many years ago; my kids are all grown up and have kids of their own now) we lived in a small village in central England, having moved there from the ‘big city’ just a few months earlier. She was a pupil at the tiny junior school in the next village, a school with only around 100 pupils aged from 7 – 11, kids from around the very rural catchment area.
    One Thursday morning she asked if her one of her friends could come for a sleepover from school the next day, and could I ask the girl’s mum or dad if it was OK by them that afternoon when I went to pick her up. I said yes, and asked her which friend so I knew which parents to ask. She told me the girl’s name, but being such a small school she was friends with just about everybody there and the name didn’t ring any bells, so I asked her to describe the kid. She spent ages trying to describe her friend; height, hair colour, hair-style, shape of face, eyes, mouth, etc. etc., but I was still none the wiser. Eventually she said “You do know her, you helped her dad fix his car outside school at Christmas.
    In all the time she was trying to describe her, not once did she think to mention that her friend was not only black, but apart from her younger sister, was the only black child at the school.
    When I asked why she had omitted the one detail that would have pinned down who she was talking about instantly, she said that basically she had never thought of her in terms of colour, she was just another friend. She’d had friends of various ethnic backgrounds, mainly Afro-Caribbean and Asian, at the school she’d attended when we were city dwellers, and saw a person’s skin colour as unimportant as their shoe size.

    It’s no secret that nobody is born racist, just as no-one is born Christian or Muslim; they are ugly traits that have to be taught. I know that the problem of racism – and religion – is far greater in the U.S.A. than in Britain (although at the time the above took place there was a lot of racism around, we just made sure as much as possible that our own kids weren’t exposed to it), but as others have pointed out earlier on this thread it gets to be less of a problem with each new generation; we just have to try and teach the younger generations that a person’s racial or ethnic identification is not a problem before the racists teach them that it is; or, in other words, judging people by their words and actions is perfectly acceptable; judging by their race, ethnicity, colour, sexuality, gender et al is not.

  15. 68

    composer99 says:
    I know, right? I mean, that’s totally why Anders Breivik used knives in his killing spree. Right? Right?

    We’re getting slightly off topic with the knife thing, but yes, that was another tragedy that could have been prevented. If only there were more responsible men and women carrying concealed handguns, perhaps they could eliminate these threats and save lives.

    Rutee Katreya says:
    Also, the USA has guns, and considerably more crime than Poland, if you’d like to claim that gun ownership reduces crime.

    I understand that you have good intentions, but your ideas are wrong.

    Police officers can’t be everywhere and protect everyone from situations like this, where someone snaps and does harm to others, which is why I favor civilian gun ownership and am against gun control.

  16. 69

    We’re getting slightly off topic with the knife thing, but yes, that was another tragedy that could have been prevented. If only there were more responsible men and women carrying concealed handguns, perhaps they could eliminate these threats and save lives.

    Like what happened at Aurora, right? Oh wait. Because while Meriken have had several of these shooting sprees, Breivik is notable for being the only one in a long while in Norway.

    I understand that you have good intentions, but your ideas are wrong.

    Because you say so? The facts are on my side.

    Police officers can’t be everywhere and protect everyone from situations like this, where someone snaps and does harm to others, which is why I favor civilian gun ownership and am against gun control.

    Yeah, the police can’t be everywhere, which is why having considerably fewer guns available to the populace works to protect people from snapping.

  17. 70

    Like what happened at Aurora, right? Oh wait. Because while Meriken have had several of these shooting sprees, Breivik is notable for being the only one in a long while in Norway.

    Yes. Exactly. The State of Colorado issues Concealed Carry Permits to civilians that prove themselves through background checks and shooting ability, but the City of Aurora has an ordinance against concealed carry, so I would argue that lives were lost because of gun control in that situation. Thank you for proving my point.

  18. 71

    You think people shooting in a dark theater would result in anything except chaos and an increased body count? I want to know where you live so I can be sure to stay away.

  19. 72

    You think people shooting in a dark theater would result in anything except chaos and an increased body count? I want to know where you live so I can be sure to stay away.

    I live in the real world, not fantasy land, and I hope that you do stay away because we don’t need any more ignorant fools in our gene pool. Have you ever discharged a firearm? If not, you have no frame of reference, so why voice your opinion on something which you haven’t the slightest clue about? That’s almost as bad as men telling women that they’re not allowed to control their own bodies. Oh, wait…

  20. 73

    Yes. Exactly. The State of Colorado issues Concealed Carry Permits to civilians that prove themselves through background checks and shooting ability, but the City of Aurora has an ordinance against concealed carry, so I would argue that lives were lost because of gun control in that situation. Thank you for proving my point.

    It’s fucking Colorado, you dunderhead. Even if Aurora bans concealed carry, citizens still have nearly unrestricted access to owning guns. How stupid can you possibly be? Concealed Carry Permits don’t even let you go into businesses concealed in colorado, and that’s amazingly permissive as is?

    At what fucking point do gun nuts just cave and say “Okay, maybe guns aren’t great?” What fucking evidence do you need? You said “ONLY CRIMINALS WILL HAVE GUNS IF WE MAKE GUNS ILLEGAL”, I point you to a country that has tons of criminals (or at least, crime) and still doesn’t have criminals with guns. You insisted that the lack of guns permitted breivik, so I point at shootings int he USA that happened despite easy access to a gun, and now it’s fucking concealed carry? What the fuck is wrong with you? Is anything less than every single citizen being William Fucking Tell, and armed with rocket launchers, going to be proof that we need more guns to your sorry ass?

    Have you ever discharged a firearm? If not, you have no frame of reference, so why voice your opinion on something which you haven’t the slightest clue about?

    I’m sorry, is “Knives are more dangerous than guns, because the gunshot only comes in from one side but knives are slashed in a wide arc” guy going to accuse other people of not knowing what guns are like?

    That’s almost as bad as men telling women that they’re not allowed to control their own bodies. Oh, wait…

    No, actually, it’s nothing like that. Because women’s bodies are our bodies, but your gun is a fucking penis replacement you refuse to let go of. And you are an asshole for confusing your fucking penis replacement for our fucking bodies.

  21. 74

    Have you ever discharged a firearm?

    Probably before you were a twinkle in your daddy’s eye I was an infantryman in Vietnam. So I’ve not only discharged a firearm, I’ve specifically and with intent shot at real people who were shooting back at me. I’ve even (and this would make you cream in your jeans) fired full-auto at people. I also have two Purple Hearts, so sometimes the people shooting back were successful.

    It’s a well-known phenomenon that most infantry either freeze in combat or fire wildly without sighting at a real target. These are trained soldiers, not some guy thinking he’s John Wayne because he took a six hour weapons safety course to get his concealed carry permit. So please excuse me if I think my real world experience trumps your masturbatory fantasies.

  22. 75

    Well Rodney, I apologize for assuming that you didn’t know what you were talking about. I’m glad to hear that you do have a frame of reference. And yes, I’m well aware of that combat phenomenon, but it’s not much of an issue with proper training. Of course, there’s always the toothless hippy types… Just hope they never get put into that situation.

    I’ve been a cop in a major city for 15+ years, and I’ve been shot and stabbed on a few occasions. Speaking from personal experience, I’d rather be shot than stabbed. I didn’t mean to imply that knives are more dangerous than guns per se, my point was just that knives are also dangerous weapons that are readily available, and they don’t run out of bullets.

    Rutee, I hope that you seek some sort of guidance or therapy for your mental issues. It appears that you are one of the types of people who shouldn’t be allowed to own firearms, but that doesn’t mean you should take out your frustration on people of sound mind, who want nothing more than to be able to protect themselves and their loved ones.

  23. 76

    I’ve been a cop in a major city for 15+ years, and I’ve been shot and stabbed on a few occasions. Speaking from personal experience, I’d rather be shot than stabbed. I didn’t mean to imply that knives are more dangerous than guns per se, my point was just that knives are also dangerous weapons that are readily available, and they don’t run out of bullets.

    Uh, no. No, you haven’t. If you had, you’d be all over the news. Your ideas on how often police officers receive these kinds of injury are way overblown. Your ideas of how well people recover from these kinds of injuries and return to active-duty policing that would put them in the line of fire again are bizarre. Of course, given the rest of what you’ve had to say, that’s not surprising.

  24. 77

    I’ve been a cop in a major city for 15+ years

    Filed under shit that didn’t happen. Even cops in major cities don’t shoot enough to justify the shit you’re talking.

    I didn’t mean to imply that knives are more dangerous than guns per se, my point was just that knives are also dangerous weapons that are readily available, and they don’t run out of bullets.

    Then you suck at talking.

    Rutee, I hope that you seek some sort of guidance or therapy for your mental issues.

    You are a piece of shit. Implying I have mental issues because I’m swearing at an ignorant asshat? Is there any low you won’t stoop to?

    Because swearing doesn’t mean I’m uncontrollably angry, punching the walls. Swearing means I’ve fucking had it with your stupid ass.

    . It appears that you are one of the types of people who shouldn’t be allowed to own firearms,

    Someone who knows how fucking dangerous they are, and would, at any rate, never want to own one because she knows it’s a greater danger to her loved ones, statistically speaking, should never be allowed to own a gun, but fools who think the world is a fucking spaghetti western should.

    Fuck you. The majority of people who kill are not pacifists. Most deaths are either by people in the grip of emotion, who’d never have killed if the means weren’t immediately available… or overconfident, smug assholes like you who think they’re incapable of killing ‘good guys’ and end up accidentally shooting their kid or spouse because they think being a white hat protects them from friendly fire.

    who want nothing more than to be able to protect themselves and their loved ones.

    I repeat to your contentless ass: What evidence could possibly prove guns don’t help, to you? You’re making it abundantly clear that you’re just going to declare anything short of open carrying of rocket launchers is proof of MORE GUNS. For fuck’s sake: COLORADO, and you’re still saying the answer is “LEEEEEESSSSSS”.

    The rest of the civilized world learned better decades ago. Why are you so immune to reality, exactly?

  25. 78

    Look, I’m not your enemy. I wouldn’t even consider myself a gun nut, I only own 1 rifle aside from the handgun issued to me. I simply don’t support passing more laws restricting firearms for law-abiding citizens. I’ve explained why, and it’s just in one ear and out the other with you. You seem to be the ones seeing things in terms of black or white. Make your arbitrary assertions and preach your gospel of peace and harmony and no more guns, but when it’s all said and done, the guns will still be here. It doesn’t bother me, and I’ve had them used against me. Why should it bother you so much?

    And the rocket launcher thing… You’re not serious, are you? You don’t really believe that firearms are some sort of gateway drug. Get a grip. Go ahead and call me more names, insult me, say I’m a liar. I don’t care about any of that, I was just trying to have an intelligent conversation. But at the rate we’re going, I don’t think it’s of any use for me to continue this discussion.

  26. 79

    Look, I’m not your enemy

    Again, you’re not really a cop, but if you were you might have some idea of the futility of this statement. Cops basically are enemies to people of color, especially [email protected] in a state with a papers please law.

    . I’ve explained why, and it’s just in one ear and out the other with you

    I haven’t forgotten your reasons; they’re stupid. Every one of them has been answered with an argument, and the facts are against you. You’ve been forced into increasingly dumb positions.

    You seem to be the ones seeing things in terms of black or white

    Gun laws basically only restrict law-abiding citizens (good guys). Criminals (bad guys) don’t care about the law,

    “There’s no such thing as a good gun. There’s no such thing as a bad gun. A gun in the hands of a bad man is a very dangerous thing. A gun in the hands of a good person is no danger to anyone except the bad guys.”

    -Charlton Heston

    Sure. Keep telling yourself ‘you don’t see things in black and white’, when you keep talking like it’s a movie. Meanwhile, I’m not claiming gun control is a panacea (That’d be a hard claim to make, given states like Poland, which do have a high crime rate despite some idealists’ claims)

    And the rocket launcher thing… You’re not serious, are you?

    Are you following the conversation? I asked you what could possibly prove to you that guns don’t protect people, because at the rate you were going (For fuck’s sake, your response to Aurora was ‘LESS GUN CONTROL, CONCEALED CARRY WOULD SOLVE IT’), nothing less than open artillery would satisfy you.

    What disproves your notion that gun control doesn’t help protect a populace? Because I’ll tell you right now, if developed countries that actually had open access to firearms had fewer deaths, particularly fewer deaths by firearms (Not really counting suicide), then I’d seriously consider the merits of open access to firearms. As is, we only have the bloviating of fools like you, and the unevidenced opinions of some predominantly dead white men.

    You don’t really believe that firearms are some sort of gateway drug.

    Seeing as I didn’t say that, no, I don’t.

    I don’t care about any of that, I was just trying to have an intelligent conversation.

    Which is why you won’t even answer a basic question about your position; what would falsify your position. The sure hallmark of someone desiring an intelligent conversation.

  27. 80

    The thing I took most objection to was the idiotic idea that the Aurora theater shooting would have been “improved” if people in the audience had been armed. It was easy for the shooter, everyone else was his target. It would have been difficult for someone in the audience to shoot back because all they could see was muzzle flashes. Also no one in the audience was expecting a shooting and was suddenly in a deadly force situation completely unprepared. I can easily see someone pulling out their trusty Glock and firing at random, making a bad situation worse.

  28. 81

    Out of interest:

    Firearms-related homicide rate in the US: 3.7 per 100,000 in 2009 (from the CDC)

    Firearms-related homicide rate in Poland: 0.04 per 100,000 in 2009 (from gunpolicy.org, which cites UN and WHO sources)

    Some other select firearm-related rates (all from gunpolicy.org, but I’m not providing hyperlinks so as to avoid going into moderation)):
    Canada 0.5 per 100,000 in 2009
    Czech Republic 0.17 per 100,000 in 2009
    Switzerland 0.72 per 100,000 in 2009
    Japan no 2009 data, 0.0 per 100,000 in 2008 (absolute # 11 deaths) and 0.04 per 100,000 in 2007

    These may not be all quite apples-to-apples comparisons if gunpolicy defines it slightly differently from CDC, so from gunpolicy.org the US rate in 2009 is 2.98 per 100,000 (which suggests gunpolicy.org has a stricter definition than the CDC does).

  29. 82

    Other firearms-related mortality (from suicide/unintentional death) and morbidity (whether from assault, self-inflicted, or unintentional) also matters, but I haven’t the time to look that up right now.

  30. 83

    So to follow up on #81-82:

    All numbers are, unless otherwise specified:
    (1) from gunpolicy.org;
    (2) for 2009;
    (3) expressed in incidence rates of per 100,000 population

    Other Firearms Mortality

    Firearms-Related Suicides
    USA 5.75 from 2005
    Poland 0.14
    Canada 1.79 from 2006
    Czech Republic 1.16
    Switzerland 3.15 from 2008
    Japan recent data not on gunpolicy.org, most recent figure is 0.04 from 1999

    Firearms-Related Unintentional Mortality
    USA 0.27 from 2005
    Poland 0.03
    Canada 0.08 from 2006
    Czech Republic 0.13
    Switzerland recent data not on gunpolicy.org, most recent figure is 0.10 from 1998
    Japan recent data not on gunpolicy.org, most recent figure is 0.01 from 1999

    Firearms-Related Morbidity
    gunpolicy.org does not appear to have values for this.

    Bottom Line

    Unless I could get better results by scouring individual countries’ firearms-related mortality/morbidity statistics, it appears the US has a substantially higher firearms-related mortality, at 2-3 times the rate, than countries with comparable levels of affluence or firearms ownership.

    Let me put it this way: I don’t think the problem is too few guns.

  31. 84

    48 murders per million vs. 9 murders in Poland, and the USA ‘wins’? What galaxy do you live in?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_the_United_States

    (Hint: Multiply by 10 to convert /100k to /1m)

    Seriously, what galaxy do you gun nut assholes live in?

    It’s pretty obvious that taking away guns has an adverse effect on a population’s ability to not get murdered.

    Actually, it doesn’t, because Poland is very poor; the poorest in the EU, bar none except maybe Greece. Notwithstanding that the numbers don’t let the USA win to begin with, and that tons of other countries trail WAAAAAY behind the USA, and have far fewer guns. Poland is primarily there to show that high crime and high gun control don’t mean the criminals have guns. But you know, Poland is also doing better in outright crime stats that matter, so hey.

    but I know that before I fire my weapon I consider where every bullet might travel.

    God almighty, spare us the bullshit. You aren’t going to have that kind of time under fire.

    I just think it could have possibly been ended with less loss of life if there were a competent CHL holder present, which the City of Aurora does not allow.

    You mean an action movie MC, because that’s just not fucking happening in the real world.

  32. 85

    Rutee Katreya says:
    What I said was that a lack of gun access would reduce violent crime rates. Poland was chosen specifically because of its high street crime rate, which contra to your assertion that criminals will get guns anyway, does not include a whole lot of violent crime, guns or otherwise.

    If you look at the statistics, Poland trumps us in murders. We’re not even in the top 50, Poland is 24th. It’s pretty obvious that taking away guns has an adverse effect on a population’s ability to not get murdered.


    And Rodney, I understand that movie theater situation was difficult, if not impossible to defend against, but I know that before I fire my weapon I consider where every bullet might travel. Anyone carrying a concealed handgun should do the same. We’ve seen the results of having nobody returning fire on that psycho, I just think it could have possibly been ended with less loss of life if there were a competent CHL holder present, which the City of Aurora does not allow.

  33. 86

    Here was me, thinking I had posted this earlier, but I must not have:

    Big City Cop: In addition to the homicide rate noted by Rutee (from US DoJ via Wikipedia) and the firearms-related homicide rates I note upthread, a head-to-head comparison of the US and Poland on the website you cite unequivocally fails to support your contention.

    Why the US isn’t on the table you provided, I couldn’t say (other than NationMaster has a bizarre method of putting together homicide rate tables). But however you slice the data, it’s worse than Poland both in overall homicide rate and in firearms-related homicides.

  34. 87

    Big City Cop #84

    I know that before I fire my weapon I consider where every bullet might travel. Anyone carrying a concealed handgun should do the same.

    I’m reminded of a song from the musical Man From La Mancha: “To Dream the Impossible Dream.” When I was in a firefight, I wasn’t considering where every bullet might travel, I was more concerned with getting them before they got me. But that’s a difference between police and military. The police are trained to use deadly force as a last resort. In the military, certainly at the sharp end, it’s shoot early and shoot often.

    We’ve seen the results of having nobody returning fire on that psycho, I just think it could have possibly been ended with less loss of life if there were a competent CHL holder present, which the City of Aurora does not allow.

    It’s my belief there’s a whole lot more incompetent shooters around than competent ones. I think the Aurora city council has the right idea, keep guns out of the hands of people who don’t know how to use them. There’s a few people who do know how to use firearms and an even smaller group who know how to use pistols (I’m not one of them) but they’re a distinct minority.

  35. FU
    90

    “Thirteen year old black kid bla bla bla”

    And since then about ten thousand white people and other also Asian people and other non Negroids have been the victims of the most unbelievably savage Negro violent crimes – and nary a peep from the likes of you, and not a peep from the enemy owned mass media and the whore politicians, nor does the mulatto in chief give a shit because the victims don’t look like one of his sons might have looked like!!!

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