Some More (Slightly Less Charitable) Thoughts About “Special Interest” Atheist Groups

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So I wrote a piece a few days ago, with a partial answer to the question, “Why do there need to be atheist groups for specific kinds of atheists? Why should there be black atheist groups, Ex-Muslim atheist groups, women’s atheist groups?” It was a fairly calm, civil, patient piece. But some of the commentary on it gave me a much less patient, much less charitable view of this, airquotes, “issue.”

No, the commentary wasn’t hostile. That’s not it. See, a number of people pointed out that there are plenty of “special interest” atheist sub-groups that are entirely uncontroversial. (Within the atheist movement, anyway: I’m sure the Christian Right doesn’t much like them.) There are atheist parenting groups. Atheist book clubs. Atheist hiking clubs. Heck, there’s an entire national organization, the Secular Student Alliance, devoted entirely to meeting the needs of a specific sub-group of atheists — namely, atheist students — and supporting their student-centered groups.

And in the years I’ve been involved in organized atheism, I have never once heard a peep of complaint about any of these.

I have never once heard anyone say, “Why do student atheists need a national organization just for their groups? Why can’t they just go to the regular off-campus atheist group?” “Why do atheist parents need their own group and their own activities?” “Doesn’t the atheist book club splinter and divide our community?” “Isn’t the atheist hiking group segregation — discrimination against people who don’t hike?”

Never. Literally never.

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Quite the opposite. If these sub-groups and specialty groups can get enough members, and if the groups survive and flourish, it’s seen as a good thing. It’s seen as a way to draw new people into the atheist community: if there are atheists who aren’t that interested in the other group activities, but who like to hike or talk about books, the atheist book club or hiking club might bring them in. And it’s understood that parents and students have particular interests and needs — particular scheduling concerns, and activities they’ll want to do, if nothing else — so again, having groups dedicated to them is actually going to draw more people into organized atheism. And it’s also recognized that if a group is surviving and flourishing, then, self-evidently, there’s a desire for it. There might be a little competitiveness — especially if one of these special-interest groups shoots up as its own thing rather than as a sub-group of an existing group, and especially if it starts drawing members away. But as a general principle, it’s understood that these special interest groups are a Good Thing.

So why is it such a problem to have special groups for black atheists, or women atheists, or atheists from other marginalized demographics?

[crickets]

My not-very-charitable interpretation: A lot of people don’t want to recognize that women, African Americans, other marginalized demographics, even have particular needs and interests and concerns.

After all, if you accept that, then you have to accept that racism exists and is a thing, that sexism exists and is a thing, that other marginalizations exist and are things. To understand why black atheists or women atheists might want their own groups, you have to understand some harsh realities about what it’s like to be a woman or an African American — realities that make the experience of being a woman really different from that of being a man, realities that make the experience of being African American really different from that of being white.

And when you accept that racism, sexism, and other marginalizations really exist and are things, a whole lot of other dominoes start tumbling down. You have to accept just how large and pervasive and terrible some of these marginalizations are. You have to accept the fact that you, yourself, sometimes contribute to these marginalizations, even without meaning to. And if you’re a halfway decent person, you have to start working to make a difference.

It’s much easier to maintain the pleasant fiction that, while readers and hikers and parents and students might have their own needs and interests and experiences, marginalization and oppression can’t possibly shape people’s experiences — certainly not enough that they might occasionally want to spend time with other folks who’ve been through the same crap.

Accepting the reality of marginalization knocks over a whole lot of dominoes.

Starting a book club? That hardly knocks over any.

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Greta Christina is author of four books: Comforting Thoughts About Death That Have Nothing to Do with God, Coming Out Atheist: How to Do It, How to Help Each Other, and Why, Why Are You Atheists So Angry? 99 Things That Piss Off the Godless, and Bending: Dirty Kinky Stories About Pain, Power, Religion, Unicorns, & More.

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Some More (Slightly Less Charitable) Thoughts About “Special Interest” Atheist Groups
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19 thoughts on “Some More (Slightly Less Charitable) Thoughts About “Special Interest” Atheist Groups

  1. 1

    I don’t really know what it’s like in the US (I’m lucky enough to live in a country where religion doesn’t matter), but, although I understand what you’re saying about minority atheist groups, I think it’s very important that the people in those groups also engage with the general atheist crowd, to remind the latter that yes, women and black people exist too, and some of them might have interesting and important things to say.
    Not disagreeing with you, just adding my bit.

  2. 2

    although I understand what you’re saying about minority atheist groups, I think it’s very important that the people in those groups also engage with the general atheist crowd, to remind the latter that yes, women and black people exist too, and some of them might have interesting and important things to say.

    Adam Pack @ #1: Many marginalized people do participate in both their “special interest” group and the mainstream group. But I don’t agree that it’s “very important” that they do. I think that is entirely. 100% up to the people and groups in question. I think groups of marginalized people get to decide for themselves/ ourselves what our priorities are. We don’t just matter because of how we’re seen by the privileged mainstream. We matter in ourselves, in our own experiences.

  3. 3

    Adam Pack,
    I understand what you are saying, but you are assuming these groups don’t already try to engage with the general atheist crowd. These groups do have interesting and important things to say and some of them are on Free Thought blogs. The question is how much is the “general atheist crowd” listening?

  4. 4

    Sorry, I obviously expressed myself really badly since you both took what I said the same way and it wasn’t what I meant. I’ll try again. I’m not saying that marginalised people are responsible for how the rest of society sees them. It’s completely up to anyone how they interact or don’t with any other person (there are atheists that I personally wouldn’t touch with a ten foot pole).
    I think it would benefit the atheist community in general to be aware of the existence of minority atheists. As Ms Christina says, atheists have to ‘ accept that racism, sexism, and other marginalizations really exist and are things’. And I think that there need to be more people shouting about that. I know there are some voices from the marginalised already (and sorry if I seemed like I was marginalising them even further, Karmacat), but the ‘general atheist crowd’ need to be shouted at til they pay attention.

  5. 5

    I always go back to the dictionary, and today it told me that marginalize meant “to relegate to an unimportant or powerless position within a society or group” So I’m wondering if we can equate marginalization with lack of privilege? I bring this up because I might imagine that members of a black atheist group might have lower privilege due to skin color, ie getting stopped by police more often, etc, but higher privilege in regard to education, upbringing, earning power, and life options compared to other black people. So I would offer the hypothesis that every individual has a unique fingerprint of marginalization/privilege.

    You mention ex-Muslim, but you don’t say ex-black. Black is ethnicity along with skin color, so black people in an atheist group might, in fact, be ex-black, since the mainstream black culture is bound to xtian dogma.

    I see the importance of atheist groups for marginalized people as having more to offer than just the comfort of knowing others in the group know how their marginalization feels and can expect safety from being marginalized in the group. They also have common culture to celebrate, and an understanding of how their atheism is at odds with that culture. The message of black atheist groups to the mainstream black community might be, “We are atheists and we affirm our right to our black culture while letting go of its religious component.”

    In addition to forming special atheist groups, I think it is important to be visible in other atheist groups and also everywhere else one is in life. Not all us will be comfortable being completely out, we should just do what we can do. But being out where it makes us nervous can have the good consequence of making at least some people think. Perhaps the message a black individual sends to both the atheist community and the mainstream is, “I’m an atheist, and in that context, my skin color and ethnicity is incidental.”

  6. 6

    Perhaps the message a black individual sends to both the atheist community and the mainstream is, “I’m an atheist, and in that context, my skin color and ethnicity is incidental.”

    johnu @ #5: Ack! No! You were doing so well until then! It’s not incidental! It’s often very important!

    Speaking for myself: My gender, my sexual orientation, my other marginalizations, are not incidental to my atheism and my participation in the atheist community and movement. They are intertwined. I do not want to go to an atheist group if my identities are going to be incidental.

  7. 7

    Maybe we are hung up on “incidental”? What I meant was inconsequential, or perhaps irrelevant. The dictionary tells me incidental doesn’t quite mean that. My bad.

    So what I’m trying to say is that if I ever get to go to one of your Godless Perverts Social Club events (I live in Seattle), my pervy creds would be relevant, because that is what is on the menu.

    But if I went to the Tracie Harris lecture, and offered an opinion on religious fundamentalism, I would expect my ideas to be treated at their face value, and neither approved or disapproved based on my somewhat eclectic taste in sexual partners. So, while my sex stuff is important to my identity, it would be irrelevant in that context, as I think it should be.

    On the other hand, if, at either event, a racist, homophobic, etc comment was made, I would consider it a teachable moment. Hopefully I would have the wit and guts to take advantage of it.

  8. 8

    I have an even less charitable interpretation than you do, Greta. I think a lot of people are perfectly well aware that that women, African Americans, and other marginalized demographics have particular needs and interests and concerns. They either (a) just don’t give a shit (at best), or (b) are actively hostile to those needs, interests and concerns – and not coincidentally to those who express them.

  9. 9

    If you want to see panties bunch up, mention interest in forming a queer atheist group.

    My not-very-charitable interpretation: A lot of people don’t want to recognize that women, African Americans, other marginalized demographics, even have particular needs and interests and concerns. After all, if you accept that, then you have to accept that racism exists and is a thing, that sexism exists and is a thing, that other marginalizations exist and are things.

    In my experience, you’re spot on. The existence of atheist student groups, atheist book clubs, and atheist do-gooding societies are non-threatening because they do not make people reflect on why such groups exist. Organizations for marginalized communities do. And that kind of reflection is very uncomfortable for a lot of people.

  10. 10

    @ Gregory: I like to see panties bunch up, and I’m in Seattle. Want to start a queer atheist group? Or maybe Ms. Christina would give us a franchise for a Godless Perverts Social Club? Great name, sort of trips off the tongue. I’ve been a sex positive activist since 1953, and I’m a born atheist, third gen at least, but I’m new to atheist activism.

  11. 11

    So what I’m trying to say is that if I ever get to go to one of your Godless Perverts Social Club events (I live in Seattle), my pervy creds would be relevant, because that is what is on the menu.

    johnu @ #7: I guess my point is: When people of color come to Godless Perverts, they get to bring their experience of their race/ ethnicity with them, as much or as little as they think is relevant. If their experience of their race is important to them, if it shapes how they experience religion, atheism, sex, the intersection of all that — then it’s not inconsequential or irrelevant. Race, ethnicity, gender, sexual orientation, gender identity, class, physical ability, mental health — all of that can intertwine and intersect with sexuality, religion and the loss/lack thereof, how religion and the loss/lack thereof affect sexuality, etc. If someone’s identity matters to them, and if for them it’s relevant to the things we discuss, then it matters to us.

  12. 13

    @Greta #1 – I don’t disagree with what you say here, but I don’t think it has to do with what I was saying. I’m running out of steam on this, but one last try. If my identity isn’t relevant to a given group, topic, etc., then I think two things are appropriate.

    1. I won’t interject my identity into the discussion unless someone says something mean about my identity. And I would likely object if the said something mean about someone else’s identity.

    2. I would expect the group to treat everyone equally, which means no derogatory stuff, but also no fussing over the cute little marginalized minority member who showed up.

  13. 14

    I’m very excited to participate in the CFI table at the Greater Grand Rapids Pride event this year. It’ll be my first experience in outwardly expressing my intersectionality in such a public way.

  14. 15

    If my identity isn’t relevant to a given group, topic, etc., then I think two things are appropriate.

    1. I won’t interject my identity into the discussion unless someone says something mean about my identity. And I would likely object if the said something mean about someone else’s identity.

    2. I would expect the group to treat everyone equally, which means no derogatory stuff, but also no fussing over the cute little marginalized minority member who showed up.

    johnu @ #13: My point is that you get to decide whether your identity is or is not relevant to a given topic, group, etc. If you think it’s not, that’s fine, I’m certainly not going to try to talk you into dragging identity politics into places where it doesn’t interest you. But if other people want to interject their identities into the discussion, if for them the intersectionality is relevant and important, I want to support that. And I don’t particularly want to be part of a group where that is discouraged.

    I definitely see your point about #2. A lot of women, POC, other marginalized folks have reported showing up to meetups and being glommed on. Like, in an effort to make marginalized folks feel welcome, the group is actually achieving the opposite — making the newcomer feel Other.

  15. 16

    A lot of women, POC, other marginalized folks have reported showing up to meetups and being glommed on. Like, in an effort to make marginalized folks feel welcome, the group is actually achieving the opposite — making the newcomer feel Other.

    THIS. Nothing makes me want to run out of the door of a meetup than being seen as the Only Black Person (or Woman or Queer, but usually just Black) person there.

    I once was on a panel for a college group about being more welcoming to minorities, and this was a point I kept hammering on.

  16. 17

    @Feminace – I’ve been on several boards where the subject of how to get more minority members or minority board members was discussed. At least once I’ve had to point out that our membership had minority members roughly in the same proportion as the general population of our county. To me, that is what being welcoming, inclusive, etc would look like.

    There is a good argument for having minorities on boards, to send a strong message to the public and members that minority members are leaders. That is certainly welcoming. However it is important that the minority person be able and motivated to do the work of the board. I’ve seen cases where they weren’t, and it often ended badly, both for the member and the organization.

  17. 18

    However it is important that the minority person be able and motivated to do the work of the board. I’ve seen cases where they weren’t, and it often ended badly, both for the member and the organization.

    johnu @ #17: I’ve seen cases where people on the privileged ends of the axes of privilege — white, cisgender, middle-class, college-educated men — were not able or motivated to do the work of the board. Many, many, many, many cases. It’s just that they’re not expected to stand in as representatives of their entire race/ gender/ class — and their entire race/ gender/ class will not be judged on their performance.

  18. 19

    johnu @ #17: Also (forgot to mention this in previous comment), when a white, cisgender, middle-class, college-educated man fails, it’s not seen as a failure of the very idea of affirmative action, and is not used as an excuse to never try that again.

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