Women Who Date Men: Do You Feel Expected to Let Men Make the First Move?

So I was going to ask this anyway. But upon seeing the completely amazing conversation that started yesterday — the one about about men who date women feeling a social expectation to make the first move in dating and sex — I definitely want to ask it now.

Women who date men: Do you feel a social expectation to let men make the first move in dating and sex? It’s for a piece I’m writing for AlterNet.

If you do: Can you say more about that? How has this affected you? How has it affected your dating life and your relationships? How has it affected other people in your life — women, men, or alternatively gendered? If you’re not actively dating men now (because you’re partnered, have decided to be single, are primarily pursuing other women, etc.) but have in the past — how has this affected you in the past?

You can answer in the comments — or, if you prefer more privacy than that, you can email me, greta (at) gretachristina (dot) com. Again: This is for a piece I’m writing, so please let me know how you want your name cited if I quote you, or if you want to only be quoted anonymously, or what. (If you don’t say otherwise, I’ll assume it’s okay to quote you with handle or first name only.) Thanks!

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Women Who Date Men: Do You Feel Expected to Let Men Make the First Move?
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62 thoughts on “Women Who Date Men: Do You Feel Expected to Let Men Make the First Move?

  1. 1

    Hmmm, it’s been a while since this happened, but to me it was more like a dance: I did A, he did B, I could react again with C until we… well, you know what follows.
    I found navigating those issues mildly uncomfortable. I think we both checked the other one for signs of interest, moving carefully, seeing if the other one would give us information we could use to move on (like phone-numbers and such).
    I think that probably our view of what counts as “the first move” is wrong. Is the first move really when A asks B out? Does it count for nothing that A just mentioned that xe’d love to watch the new James Bond but really hates ging to the cinema alone?
    But by calling the invitation the first move, we kind of follow the old pattern in which men pursue women.
    Usually, those things happen much more subtle with many moves on either side.
    Oh, for quotes, Giliell is OK.

  2. 2

    I feel that I have gone though my dating life (now married to an opposite sex partner) being the one who made the first move. Looking back, I believe I did this consciously. Not wanting to appear to be weak or able to be intimidated is something I have always felt important to portray.

    Even meeting partners or dates through the internet (not on dating sites but moreso on messageboards) I felt that once the in-person connection was made, I would be the one to initiate anything moving forward. This would be true even if they were the one to have contacted me first.

    I don’t know if I’ve just so happened to have chosen men who are on the more submissive side or if they have just shown it outwardly because I established dominance first? I think this is even true in my marriage. Eight years ago I kissed him first and the dynamic has pretty much stayed the same.

  3. 3

    I went to an all girls school and was quite shy, so at first the only boys I met socially were either relatives or friends of my younger brothers. To meet older boys I had to actively go out and put myself into situations where I could find them. After that first obstacle it wasn’t too hard to make the first move whenever I was interested and thought a guy was too. A few times I misinterpreted actions (I guess you see what you want to see) and was quite embarrassed, not because I took the first step, but because I had deluded myself.

    Funny thing is, when I met my husband I was totally unaware of his interest (and initially wouldn’t have been interested myself) and even when he asked me for my phone number I still didn’t understand what he wanted. He actually had to spell it out for me. A year and a half later I was the one to propose. 😉

  4. 4

    I never did have a lot of experience dating when I was a teenager and young woman. I have something of a blind spot when it comes to figuring out whether a man is interested in me. I have reliable evidence that several men have been discouraged when I don’t respond as they expect to their interest in me; I’m just oblivious. I also can’t always tell when a man is responding to my own somewhat awkward and innocent flirting. So either he has to be quite clear about his intentions, or I have to be.

  5. 5

    I’m not too sure. I’m only 19, and my dating experience has been basically non-existent. Only twice have I ever really had a chance to go out with someone – the first ended when he inexplicably stopped talking to me on MSN (oh communication?), and the second when I worried so much over whether or not he was interested in me (despite anvil-sized hints…) and whether I was interested in him back that I just gave up and told him directly I wasn’t interested in a relationship at the moment.

    But for what it’s worth? …I’m not totally sure it’s because of an expectation relating to gender. I don’t know – it might be. But I’m pretty shy, and very bad at reading signals that people might be interested in me. Even when I’m pretty sure people like me I want to wait until it’s completely obvious before I do anything.

    What exactly I’d do I’m not really sure! I did sort of get into that position the first time (above), but I was only 12 or so at the time. It wasn’t that I didn’t realise that I could ask him out – I even considered it – it was just that…I dunno. One man on the other thread mentioned something I really identified with – about how being asked out made him feel attractive and wanted. That was what I wanted, I think. I could have asked the guy out, but I wanted him to do it because I liked the idea of someone wanting me enough that they’d take the risk to ask me out. Of course, that goes the other way, and the fact that I thought this was a reasonable reason to wait probably says something about my expectation that a guy WOULD take the initiative.

    I do agree with the other people who say that it’s more complicated than ‘making the first move’, though. In my (very, very limited) experience, it’s more that two people hint at each other until one is certain enough the other will accept that they ask. However, if it is accepted that, even if a woman hints at a man, that the man still be the one to actually ask… well, that is a double-standard. And it relies on the man being able to correctly interpret the signals, which not everyone can do, regardless of gender.

    Maybe it is present, though, because for a little while now I’ve been a bit interested in a girl I’ve become friends with and I remember feeling a bit helpless that I couldn’t just wait for her signal first to see whether I should respond. But then again, that’s also because she’s also pretty shy… (Or maybe it’s just around me? :P)

    Well, this is probably very unhelpful… But oh well, had to say my bit!

  6. 6

    I should have been clearer in my last post. I am heavy, heavy enough to be in the “ew” category for most men. I’m scared stiff to approach a guy, only to read painful shock, uncontrollable disgust, or helpless pity in his face. Even talking about it makes me want to hide under my desk and cry.

    That said, I’m often described as “pretty”, especially by well-meaning people with zero romantic interest in me. That’s frustrating. It always comes across as “you’re pretty for a fat chick”, or “you’d be really attractive to a guy who’s into that”, or even “I hate hearing you have to ask pitifully if there’s anything wrong with you”.

    I was reading the comments by men who are tired of games and having to ask first. My heart was breaking. I would be happy to go out with any clean, sane, educated, caring man who shares my interests and values, which is a lot easier than it sounds. But kind, caring, educated men still involuntarily sneer when they think about dating a fat chick. So. I don’t typically give them the chance, by asking them out myself, to find out how shallow they are.

  7. 7

    Though things are bit different here regarding dating rituals (or at least it was when I grew up, nowadays I think that “American dating” is becoming more common here as it’s presented in films and TV shows) the expectation of men to take the first step, and for women to wait for men to do so, is definitely the case here as well.

    When I was much younger, and clueless of these expectations, and started to get interested in being with guys, I sometimes just went up to them. Some of those situations ended very badly, and I got badly burnt several times. Being rather insecure about many things in my teens anyway and 20s I became much more shy with guys. I felt I had “learnt my lesson”, and as good as never initiated anything openly, but waited for the guy to take the first step. I simply didn’t have the courage to do that anymore, even if I often wanted to.

    The fact that I’m mostly sexually dominant in bed (I prefer to be on top, so to speak, and like it best when the guy is tied up, and similar things) had no effect on this. Being turned on by certain things doesn’t always mean other personal traits you might have will line up with your kinks in a way that it might be expected that they should.

    When I got older (I’m 41 now) I started to see much more clearly how these are things that are mostly culturally driven, and not a natural law and I got a bit more secure in myself too, on the whole. I’m out “on the prowl” 🙂 a lot less these days, but when I am, it happens more often now that I decide to simply don’t give a shit about who’s suppose to take the first step. And so I’ve occassionally been very upfront with some guys when the “dancing around the subject” and the flirting have started.

    It’s pure anecdata but I’ve noticed that some guys are indeed quite okay with this, but I’ve run into some who sure wasn’t. I especially remember this biker party a few years ago. There was this hot guy on the dancefloor, taking his shirt off dancing, and he had tattoos all over and long hair, and was just sex on two legs, according to me 😀 So, a bit later I had one of those “to hell with it”-moments and went up to him, small talked and flirted bit, and since he seemed to flirt back I asked him straight out if he would consider taking off a few more clothing items, in private this time. He acted rather weirdly to this, muttered some excuse and simply turned and left.

    Yeah, sure that stung a bit, but, he wasn’t interested and that’s what you have to expect if you do take the first step, so even though I was disappointed I soon got over it. About an hour later I was sitting at the bar, when the same guy suddenly turns up again, and tells me that he was in fact interested in my offer, it was only that he was “just not used to women telling him what to do”. I thought that was rather interesting. I had of course not actually told him to jump into bed with me, I asked if that might be something he would be interested in. But the simple fact that I, as a woman, had asked him, as a man, he interpreted as a dominant action, and he obviously wanted to be the dominant one.

    As it turned out nothing happened anyway because in the time between these two encounters I had leaerned he already had a girlfriend and so I declined this time. But it’s also interesting that his first rejection obviously wasn’t because of his girlfriend, but about not getting to be the “aggressor”.

    So, yeah, I’d say there definitely IS a price many times for being a woman and taking the first step, but that I also think it’s changing. It’s, hopefully, old stupid stuff lingering, and with a, hopefully, increasingly equal society these expectations will slowly die out.

  8. 8

    I know that the pressure is out there, because I have certainly felt it, and I know that in high school there was more pressure to let the guys ask out the girls, but I have always found that grating. (Particularly the back and forthing that inevitably happened from my friends of does (s)he/doesn’t (s)he because they wouldn’t ask themselves.)

    I’m a rather direct person, and so most times that I’ve been on a date, it’s because I’ve asked the guy. I know I’ve gotten odd looks from high school acquaintances for it, and may well have scared off less mature/self-confidant guys because of it, but that was fine. I always felt that if they couldn’t handle how direct I am, I probably wouldn’t have liked them in the long run.

  9. 9

    I have almost always made the first move. As someone who is kind of bad at social cues, I’ve gotten shot down on many occasions by people who were just flirting socially or not flirting at all. But I think that it is important to take social risks in the name of love. My current boyfriend is the first guy in the history of ever to ask ME out instead of the other way around, and him asking me was refreshing and gave me a good impression of him.

    I think a lot of the time, socially awkward men have a hard time confidently asking someone out, and so they put out a series of sexual hints that end up feeling passive-aggressive. I have seen many of my male friends fall victim to this, hinting again and again that they’d love to climb in a girl’s pants but that it can never be…(tragic sigh).

    I think that being creepy and hint-y rather than direct is a bi-gender phenomenon, and that there is nothing more flattering than someone just asking one out directly. “I would love to take you to dinner” is a sentence that is easy to memorize and provides a basis for acceptance or polite rejection.

  10. 10

    I’m pretty sure it’s to do with age and confidence for me. Also in the UK we don’t really ‘date’ in the American sense so perhaps my opinions aren’t relevent to your piece.

    But anyway. When I was much younger, in high school it seemed to be that girls that fancied particular boys would flirt and show interest but the boy would have to make the first move in terms of moving the relationship along.

    This seemed to hold true until my mid 20s when I realised what an irritating system it was and wouldn’t it be much easier to just go right up speak to the guy face to face. I lost out on some encounters, putting the man off I think but other times it proved more successful. And once in a more intimate relationship with a man I have observed they do tend to back off and let the woman make the first move. Some sort of chivarly in play? I don’t know?

    I’ve been with my current boyfriend for nearly 3 years now and it was all my doing. Though because I was (in my view) so forceful about making the relationship happen I did wait for him to commit to it romantically just to be sure he wasn’t just floating along in my current (as it were). But we’re very happy now so we must’ve done something right!

  11. PSG
    11

    Is there an expectation than men would make the first move socially? Yes.
    Do I feel the need to LET them make the first move? Hell no.
    Would a guy who doesn’t know me think that’s true? Probably not. Let me explain…

    I’ve found I generally don’t have enough in common with most people I meet to want to date them. I doubt that is an odd thing, but as a bisexual/feminist/humanist/atheist/scientist I have little tolerance for intolerance regarding other human beings in my inner circle of friends/lovers. I don’t advertise any of these facts, but I don’t deny them either. I enjoy a diverse group of friends and have a large circle of acquaintances, but there are different criteria for my dating life.

    So, in dating I’m pretty harsh with the selectivity filter and have learned to befriend someone before I “date” them. So maybe I met someone, found them attractive, even flirted perhaps, but made no “move” to date them. It’s waiting, not for ze to make the move, but for me to figure out if we share a common perspective. Then again, I’m more apt to invite someone I’m interested in to a party/gathering of my friends as a “date” of sorts, to let us get to know each other better without all the pressure and nonsense of dating.

    As an aside, it is actually more awkward for me to reject men than to be rejected by men. There have been a couple of male friends I’ve met through work that I like but have little sexual attraction to who have asked me out, and saying no was hard. I didn’t want to lose their friendship but I knew this would hurt. Luckily, both recovered and still consider me a friend (though it can take awhile).

    I’ve actively pursued a couple of guys, a couple of guys have pursued me, and a woman has pursued me. I tend towards the sub side in the bedroom, although I’m considered confident/aggresive outside of it. So I tend to let the people I date make the first sexual move, although I’ve denied and doubled down at different times with different people. Once in a sexual relationship, I tend to initiate as well when I’m comfortable with the person and their desires/needs.

    I find it interesting to note I’m more prone to pursue men than women (less likely to make men than women feel uncomfortable with my sexual interest), but that’s likely a story for another time.

    Attribute to anon, if you would please Greta.

  12. 12

    Also in the UK we don’t really ‘date’ in the American sense so perhaps my opinions aren’t relevent to your piece.

    this. I’ve never “dated”, not even after moving to the US because it’s such an altogether awkward setup. However, on the 4 occasions that I almost went on a date (i.e. there was asking out, but no actual date because communication broke down between those two events) I was the one doing the asking on half the occasions.

    As for my relationships… I’m pretty certain that in two out of three, I invited myself to their place for an extended vacation. Though, in the first of those, it was him who prompted the “let’s make this a serious relationship rather than a vacation fling, because I think I love you” conversation.

    In cases of hookups, I admit to a simple crippling shyness that’s let me to rely on the “guys will ask” dynamic sometimes, instead of doing the first step myself. But other than the feeling that approaching a stranger for ANY reason at all feels invasive to me, I don’t think I’ve felt a specific pressure in sexual situations that wasn’t also there in other situations.

    Using my handle for quotes will be fine.

  13. 13

    I’ve found I generally don’t have enough in common with most people I meet to want to date them. I doubt that is an odd thing, but as a bisexual/feminist/humanist/atheist/scientist I have little tolerance for intolerance regarding other human beings in my inner circle of friends/lovers.

    This made me blink, do a double-take, and then laugh, because this more or less sums my dating issues up. It hasn’t prevented me from dating the wrong much in the past (to my sorrow), but in the last few years, it has.

    I do not feel like I need to let a man I’m interested in make the first move, and if he’s the sort to be put off by an direct expression of interest from me, we don’t have any business dating. I had enough experiences when I was in my teens with guys who told me in past-tense that they had ‘had a crush on me for years’ to decide to just make a habit of putting all my cards on the table when I’m interested in someone. I see ‘hinting’ and hoping as a complete waste of my time and emotional energy and will not do it.

    Most men I know have expressed that they feel like they have to be the first to state an interest in a woman, and many have been taken-aback when they see the reverse happening either to themselves or others. However, I haven’t had a strongly negative reaction to my own assertiveness since… approximately middle school, twelve years ago.

    Greta, you’re welcome to use any of this, and my name, if you wish to.

  14. 14

    You’re probably soundly aware of this already, but just to quiet my own statistically-nattering mind, I anticipate that the responses to this will be strongly skewed by the nature of this blog and its demographic.

    (Also, in my previous comment, the first paragraph should read, ‘…dating the wrong person in the past’.)

  15. 15

    I suffered from sexual trauma and assault as a child so my sexuality when I was an adult was certainly affected by more than just typical societal pressures.

    I think I expected men to make the first move, but when I started dating my husband I felt so completely safe because he waited for me to make the first move (he did ask me out though). He would only kiss me if I asked or initiated. He only touched my chest if I touched his (it was like a code of sorts). He would kiss me where I touched, and when we finally did have sex I was the one on top controlling the whole process.

    I am not really a controlling person, so although I would initiate he would often take over so long as I was actively involved. Now he tends to make the first move for sex, because his libido is somewhat inconsistent and he is more likely to be too tired. And when I initiate I usually have to back off and let him pursue in order to get going.

    If I suddenly had no husband I would probably not date men, but if I did I would not want to let them make the first move. I have never asked anyone out so that still might be difficult for me, but I think if I liked a guy I would be pretty direct about it.

  16. 16

    I talk to strangers, a lot. People fascinate me. If I’m single, the stranger is male and we click, things can progress from there. From the outside, it could seem like I’m making the first move but that “move” doesn’t rely on gender or attraction. I talk to whoever is around me.

    If it comes down to who asks who for further interaction, it’s split pretty evenly. If you’ve just met someone but find yourself happily on the same page, an invitation to have dinner or whatnot comes pretty naturally.

    I can’t remember any time where I was waiting for someone to make a move although I can remember many times where an innocent conversation was taken as an invitation simply because I approached them.

  17. 17

    I just browsed through the men’s responses and it makes me feel a bit bad, as my husband is just as shy and antisocial as anyone I’ve ever met. But we just got lucky.

    I wanted to add a bit, just that I think its unfortunate that the balance is so heavily tilted towards men making the first move. I do rather feel bad that I have never asked anyone out (to be refused or accepted) or even dumped (since I married my first boyfriend).

    But I do think part of this weird dating/ sex culture is that women are supposed to make an opening for guys to make the first move and the man is supposed to notice and take it. Like what I was describing – passively initiating rather than aggressively initiating. Perhaps me and my husband had better communication since we essentially made up rules for our physical intimacy that I controlled what we did and how far we went but he was still more active. I dunno its certainly complicated though.

    my tag is fine to use btw.

  18. 18

    Sure, I have felt a lot of pressure to not ask, even though I typically ask or verbally signal anyway.

    This is going to sound terrible, I’m sure, but I ask because I assume, despite being assured that this is not true by people I’ve dated, that I am not terribly attractive and that I can’t really afford to take a passive role in dating because I’m not going to be able to fit into that sort of schema.

    I’m also sort-of aggressive by nature, something which has been criticized and punished my whole life. I have trouble remembering to be correctly passive when dating, which makes it difficult for me to date in the larger population.

    My brain is… odd. I don’t reason the same way other people seem to, and the most common comment on me in public spaces is that I tend to come at situations from 90 degrees of the rest of the people in the area. I have long running CPTSD, and I score fairly highly on the Aspie scale (3 points off a perfect score.)

    While for reasons I don’t fully understand, I am rarely without a date, I’ve had to philosophically accept that even in relationships, there will always be a gap between me and the other person which I will have to continually invest in crossing, and that I will have to accept that they will not understand me.

    I’m genuinely surprised that I’m not alone. I expected to be alone. Of course, this means that I don’t always recognize when someone is asking me out, because why would they do that?

    I’m also really verbal. I want to talk about things as they happen or talk as a way to head off developing problems, and I run into problems with the ‘you should just know’ narrative in dating; I’ve been told I insult men’s masculinity by insisting on initiating conversations and by trying to talk about things they should just know about.

    I also talk too much, I’m told.

    And I’m bisexual and kinky, which also makes my dating pool smaller.

  19. 19

    I never felt that expectation. In my case, it was an unfortunate necessity because I was simply much too shy to ever be the one who makes the first move. As a consequence I was never asked out (although this whole dating game doesn’t quite work in such a clear-cut way, here in Germany), conversations with men were always of the “buddy”-type, if you know what I mean. Which was a vicious circle of course, not having any men show interest in me made me even more sure that there was nothing to be interested in etc etc.

    When I met my husband, the whole thing was more organic than “he asked me out”. We talked and things happened. I have to say that he was the more active part, but I think this was also because he was simply more interested in me than I was in him, at the time.

    There is something from the other thread I would like to comment on, though:
    From post #43. “I suppose there are men who don’t make the first move any more often than the average woman. The difference is that they tend to end up involuntarily single, whereas women can expect a steady stream of guys trying to flirt with them no matter what they do.”

    This is not the case. Hot women may have guys standing in line to hit on them. Normal women like me? Who maybe – shock and horror – do not use an hour each morning for make-up or who don’t dress particularly inviting? I can assure you, we are not particularly better off than shy men.

  20. 20

    “Your ex-girlfriend is an idiot,” is the best pickup line ever.

    I sense the general expectation. I mean, I see ads and I know what they’re trying to tell me. I just never understand why a rule that arbitrary should apply to me. I don’t feel a need for designer-label clothes either.

    Sometimes guys have asked me out while I was running through the dance of assessing whether they were interested. Sometimes guys have proactively said, “I’m not interested,” before it got to that point. Sometimes I’ve been quite blunt.

    One gendered difference I do notice is that I feel a stronger need to be absolutely certain of what I want before asking. While the “slut” label doesn’t worry me, the consequences that are doled out to a woman considered a “tease” are not anything I want to deal with.

    With that in mind, it’s actually easier to initiate a sexual relationship than a romantic one. There are fewer points of necessary compatibility, and “I’m sorry. You’re lovely but my dinner seems to be disagreeing with me” or the equivalent doesn’t work as a polite excuse to stop dating.

    I’ve ended up in two romantic relationships with men who expressed an interest up front that I didn’t reciprocate. Circumstances made “friends with benefits” relationships undesirable at the time. In each case the giuy was surprised some months later when he found out I was interested after getting to know him very well. The second guy I’ve been married to for almost 15 years.

  21. 21

    Rereading my post, I realize that my last paragraph was rather demeaning to women who do know how to use make-up etc. That was not my intention. Consider it pure jealousy, since I am usually too shy to run the risk of actually sticking out of a crowd. 🙂

  22. 22

    I felt like adding my two cents, because noone seems to have spoken of it yet, and I’m curious if others can relate. I’m not the greatest dater out there. Not much experience with me being in my twenties and pretty studies-focused, but my mom told me to NEVER EVER EEEEEEVER make the first step. Her reasoning: a man should always love the woman more than the other way around (thus the man pursuing the woman) because…. safety. She threw in a good bit of “your body is a temple and if you let someone in, he better worship you” and while she believed that love as an abstract emotional thing was infinite, if I had promiscuous sex, I’d be giving away bits of myself and loose something each time. Being really unhappy with herself, she also gave me a reasonable amount of doubts and insecurity concerning my body along the way and it took a looong time until I became not only confident but also content with myself, my looks and my desires. It was very hard to leave that mindset behind and I’m still very cautious and careful when it comes to picking out men for whatever type of relationship. I’ve also found that only by gaining confidence and a feminist perspective, I became open to other possibilities for my love life. And yes Greta, your blog helped with that. To finish with a small anecdote, I fell for a very educated handsome man a while back and for the first time ever I made a move on a man and told him how I felt. Even though he declined politely, it felt pretty awesome not being confined to uncertainty, waiting for a sign to come, asking yourself “does he care?”, “did he notice?”, “maybe he wants it too, but I didn’t give enough hints?”. His reaction was entirely positive and we remained with a lot of respect for each other. Definitely something I will try again, when in doubt.

  23. 23

    Anonymous: Something like that from my mother, yeah. Discussions of dating were very focused toward either the idea that I’d never be loved/I was unworthy of love, or that if I ever decided to have sex with anyone, it essentially ‘broke’ that temple and whomever ‘broke’ it was someone I’d better marry.

    It made dating no good for a long time, and continues to influence my conception of my own ability to be desired.

    Communication really helps, and I’ve enjoyed reading a lot of feminist blogs because they make it seem more okay to communicate, so I don’t get as stuck in the ruts I grew up with.

  24. 24

    Back when I was younger, and straight, my tried and true method of picking up a guy was a) dress the part, b) meet his eyes, smile, look away – usually down and somewhat submissively. Worked like a charm, but the guy made the actual first move. The smile let him know it was encouraged.

    I think there are many different steps from meeting to fucking to dating that all have an initial contact moment. I was okay at the first one, saying hi. But when it came to initiating sex, I always let the other person (still do, much to my annoyance) touch first. I’ve tried to analyze why and would love to blame societal pressures. But perhaps it’s simply insecurity on my part.

    Deviating from the question here, but I wanted to say the pattern (which I reinforced with my behavior) has really confused me for how to pick up on or talk to women I find attractive. I feel that (especially when I wear a certain style of clothes) I am supposed to make the first move. But I’m not practiced at it.

  25. 25

    I absolutely feel a pressure to let men make the first move. For me, this pressure is so deeply ingrained that I find it very difficult to shake it even when I have been explicitly told by a date that it would be deeply appreciated if I were to make more first moves. My partner often tells me that he doesn’t feel desired if he has to do all of the initiating, but I still find it to be a scary and difficult task to imitate sex, despite my philosophical beliefs that tell me it should be okay, despite his urging and encouragement. Everything gets easier with practice, but I really have to put effort into making first moves, because it just flatly will not occur to me to do so until it has been pointed out that I am not doing so.

  26. 26

    shit. upon re-reading what I wrote earlier, I noticed I’ve completely skipped over my first boyfriend. I met him at a bar/club, and even though I’m a bit fuzzy on the details, I’m fairly certain this went the traditional route of me sending signals and hoping he’d pick up on them. I’m pretty sure I didn’t experience any “pressure” to not make the first move so much as didn’t even think about doing it any other way. Which is weird, since I’d approached guys for more casual sexual encounters before that. I think I might have been convinced that guys just weren’t going to be romantically interested in me, so I didn’t bother approaching them for that purpose; or something like that.

  27. 27

    Do I personally feel expected to let the man make the first move? No, not really. I think there’s been a pretty healthy alternation of that role in my relationships. I would say about half the time I’ve been the one to escalate things physically. Conversations about whether to start dating were unfortunately less memorable, so I can’t say for certain how the gender divide worked out there. Still, for much of my experience – including the one time I distinctly remember asking the man out – getting to and through that conversation relied heavily on having other friends act as go-betweens, which laid the groundwork in the “yes, x is really interested in you” sense.

    I would acknowledge that society as a whole still tends to expect the men to do the asking.

    The part where it gets interesting, I think, is in societal attitudes and individual behavior concerning casual sex (something that, with the exception of one hormone-drenched semester, has never meshed with my headspace), with its lingering double standards for men (who receive accolades) and women (who get characterized as sluts), as well as the way sex is simultaneously portrayed as something that is dirty/shameful and something that is eminently desirable.

    The dirty/shameful thing has been really hard for me to shake, and honestly it pisses me off that that got into my psyche anyway because it wasn’t even anything my parents tried to indoctrinate. Our culture did that, just by existing.

  28. 28

    I am a straight male; I commented in the previous thread and I want to respond to what speedwell wrote:

    “That said, I’m often described as “pretty”, especially by well-meaning people with zero romantic interest in me. That’s frustrating. It always comes across as “you’re pretty for a fat chick”, or “you’d be really attractive to a guy who’s into that”, or even “I hate hearing you have to ask pitifully if there’s anything wrong with you”.”

    As a very overweight male, I can definitely identify with this. I’m not trying to equate speedwell’s experiences with my own but I have had very close female friends tell me that they think I would be kinda, sorta, almost handsome if only I lost a hundred pounds.

    Another thing I am picking up on from speedwell (but I could be wrong) is an ambivalence about whether she thinks she is good looking. I try to avoid the subject of my appearance when it comes up, largely because of my own ambivalence. I just don’t think of myself as either attractive or ugly but rather as a large person. I think that is because it is the one thing about my appearance that is reinforced by other people.

    “I was reading the comments by men who are tired of games and having to ask first. My heart was breaking. I would be happy to go out with any clean, sane, educated, caring man who shares my interests and values, which is a lot easier than it sounds. But kind, caring, educated men still involuntarily sneer when they think about dating a fat chick. So. I don’t typically give them the chance, by asking them out myself, to find out how shallow they are.”

    My reaction to this passage, other than my heart also breaking, is that I think online dating isn’t the worst thing in the world and that it is at least worth a try, especially if you are trying to overcome issues with immediate rejection. I say this because I think being brutally honest in a dating profile can weed out a lot people who might reject you for completely different reasons than those you are concerned about. And frankly, it is a very different experience to be rejected for being too pedantic or political or *gasp* a non-theist.

    Conversely, I think there is a different quality to the interactions you have with people who do express interest in you and are thereby not repeating the same pattern of initial rejection that you’ve experienced. There is also the idea that if you are not used to being the one doing the rejecting, you will have lessons to learn and room to grow. That need not be a bad thing.

  29. 29

    Genderqueer who dates people including men:

    If I like a man, I’ll probably pursue. My current boyfriend I pursued aggressively, and each step of the way he seemed surprised but pleased. If I don’t pick up on mutual interest right away, however, I’ll probably drop my efforts. Since men are conditioned to make the first move, if I make a move and don’t pick up on a swift positive response, I figure that’s all the sign I need that I don’t have a chance with this one.

    There is a great freedom of choice when flirting with men: I can make a move or not, and win either way. I feel like men will let others “get away with” more, without feeling threatened or calling me a creep or whatever. Clearly this is a cultural thing – men don’t grow up in a society telling them that they’re potential victims at all times.

  30. 30

    As a straight woman, the short answer is Yes, I definitely feel a social expectation to let men make the first move. I don’t know if it’s this expectation or my pretty decent amount of shyness (I suspect both) but in my life I have only ever been able to make the first move when fairly intoxicated. Somehow it seems like it’s ok to be “slutty” and make the first move only in this situation.

    This has been the case even when I’m pretty comfortable with the guy and I’m pretty sure he will respond positively (a close friend who consistently flirted very obviously). It has affected the way that I enter into relationships (all my relationships, from just dating to serious relationships have started as “intended” drunken one-night-stands). It has led to some frustration when I’m interested in a guy who I don’t drink socially with, as I have no way to make a move with him.

  31. 31

    I agree that the best situation is when there are moves on both sides:

    “I’m really enjoying this conversation.”

    “Yeah! Me, too! We should continue it sometime…”

    “How about Tuesday? Coffee?”

    “Sounds good to me. Want my number?”

    etc.

    But also, in general, no, I don’t feel obliged to let men make the first move. I can’t remember who first suggested exchanging numbers when my boyfriend and I started dating, but I do know that we were both telegraphing attraction so obviously by then that the question of who would address it directly first was barely important.

    Then, too, there was that cute little dance on our first date when I was basically just getting closer and closer to him by degrees (checking with each little escalation to make sure he didn’t mind) and he was (according to him) sitting there thinking “She’s going somewhere with this. Where is she going with this? She’s not. She is! Sweet! Oh, yeah…”

  32. 32

    Yes, and men reinforce it.

    Let me explain: When I have been the one to make the first move, waaaaaaaay more often than not, the guy suddenly isn’t interested.

    In fact, this just recently happened. Over the summer, I met a guy who on several occasions talked about “convincing [me] to go out with [him]”. He never actually asked me though.

    So, the next time I saw him, and he commenced the flirting, *I* suggested we meet for coffee – something informal to get to know each other better. He said yes.

    Then, on the day, I messaged him to double check what time he wanted to meet up and suddenly he was “too busy” and would have to cancel but “we’d figure out something else.”

    I waited one week for him to get back to me and then deleted his phone number. (I found out later on from a mutual friend that a *month* later he was asking said friend about me again. Sorry dude. No longer interested)

    It was interesting to read the other thread because most of those comments ran directly counter to my experience. I’ve been clearly rejected for making the first move.

    Which, in a way, is a good thing. Weeds out the gender role enforcers . . .. which unfortunately, in my experience, far out number egalitarian men.

  33. 33

    I feel like because women aren’t expected to make the first move, that it’s more of a Big Deal if/when we do. Like, I might want to ask a man out just because I think he’s cute and seems nice but I worry that if I actually do that my feelings will be perceived as much more serious than that. So instead I usually just try to drop anvil-sized hints (Men, is it obvious enough when I say how I’d love to go to some event but that none of my friends are into it?). Basically, it makes something that’s already difficult even more intimidating.

  34. 34

    “Men, is it obvious enough when I say how I’d love to go to some event but that none of my friends are into it?”

    If you want an honest answer: no. No it isn’t. And this isn’t a gender issue, this is a human issue. Sometimes people think they’re sending signals while the recipient is waiting for words. But I do like where you’ve started going with your statement. Add on “are you into it?” and it becomes more obvious. Add “it’d be cool to go together” and now we’re talking (literally).

  35. 35

    Even allowing for a skewed readership demographic, 🙂 I’m surprised at how few women posting here have said they do not feel social pressure to let men “make the first move”.

    I’m wondering if this is due to a disconnect between the two as to what “the first move” is? For example, one woman here commented about how she was “sending signals” that she hoped the guy would pick up. To me, that type of thing has the “plausible deniability” factor that one could use to save oneself from embarrassment if you don’t get the hoped for positive response. (Not that men don’t do things like that, just that it’s not considered a “first move”.)

    If women are classifying those body-language signals and indirect verbal cues as “the first move” but men are classifying only the overt things like asking out on a date or trying to kiss her as “the first move”, then that would explain the difference between the two threads.

    Is that a reasonable hypothesis?

  36. Ys
    36

    I grew up in the 70s and 80s, and the perception was very much “the man leads” when it came to relationships. However, I was smarter – and heavier – than most of my classmates, which ensured no one would ever ask me out on a date. I even talked to a few of the boys about it, and found out that first, they wanted someone skinny and “hot”, and second, I intimidated the hell out of them because I was smart and read so much. I gave up on high school boys as being superficial twits.

    I didn’t start dating until I was 19 and had moved out of my ridiculous small town and to a city. I found men who could keep up with me in a conversation, but then discovered that some were still intimidated if *I* was the one who suggested we get together and do something. Being used to the rejection, I shrugged it off and had fun hanging out with the guys who weren’t afraid of me.

    Everyone seemed to think I had a confident attitude about everything, but that was covering up a big pile of mush inside that wanted to be loved. I just figured I wasn’t going to get that unless I made an effort to find it.

    Moving forward, I fell in with a medieval living history group and suddenly found myself with a massive new crowd of people with varying social skills – some quite introverted. I had a lot of fun talking to them all, but discovered that anytime I’d just start a conversation with certain people, they’d take it as a sign that I wanted to hop into bed. I found that confusing. What happened to the idea of “Hey, I think you might be an interesting person – let’s talk, hang out, and see if we click”?

    Sometimes a random hookup is fun, but it’s hard to tell which people prefer those over relationships…and by the time you’ve figured it out, you’re either more interested in them than they are in you, or vice versa. That makes it tough as well.

    I also found out that the level of inappropriate behaviour increased as I blossomed out into a fun-loving and outgoing person. I got hit on in inappropriate ways, groped, harassed, leered at…it really seemed like there was a huge bunch of men out there who couldn’t stand it when a woman demonstrated she loved life and was having a good time without them. There were occasions when men actually had me fearing for my safety, and male friends stepped forward to deal with them. I’d like to know why that was necessary – why did a man have to make it clear that I have no interest when I’d already said no? :/

    My husband and I have discussed the male-female dynamic on multiple occasions, and he thinks it’s still heavily embedded in us all that the man *has to* lead. (Which is funny considering how we wound up together, but that’s a long story.) Even now, I will suggest going out to do something, but there’s almost always a reason why we can’t do it…and then later that day or the next, he says, “Hey, let’s go do this” and it’s what I suggested. I’ve discussed that with him at length, but can’t seem to make much headway. I know he appreciates the fact that I’m confident and assertive and tell him when I want/need something, so my guess is that his ego/subconscious needs to have him lead in some fashion.

    To sum up: I think there’s a lot of pressure for men to lead, but I think some of that pressure comes from within themselves. Some can’t relax and let a woman lead, and some don’t want to let a woman lead. Other men don’t want to lead or don’t mind sharing the burden. I think it’s highly individualised and that society isn’t flexible enough to recognize that.

  37. 37

    coryalbrecht, that does sound reasonable. I wonder if anyone has studied this? That is something Greta could look up on the Google Scholar. (I probably will too when I get the spare time.) At the very least, women are socialized to not be pushy, whereas men don’t have many stigmas against taking a very direct approach to getting what they want, so the standards of what counts as what looks different.

  38. 38

    I’ve often been the one to make the first move. I’ve asked several people on dates/etc. I’ve also been judged for it, and told that “men should be more outgoing/make the first move.” I’ve never let it bother me, and I still act on what I want, but it’s happened.

  39. 39

    I’m not someone with a huge amount of experience having married the second person I ever dated, but although I mostly waited for my first boyfriend to initiate anything because I was much younger than he was, when I met my eventual husband I knew I wanted him so much that I asked him out almost immediately and was the one who suggested every date afterwards. It turns out this was a good thing because being socially awkward, he had always had a hard time reading cues from women and that resulted in him being rebuffed so consistently that he’d given up. He was the one who asked me to marry him, but either of us has been equally likely to initiate sex through our whole relationship. Asking him out was something that made me very nervous, but only because I was worried he would reject me out of lack of interest. It never crossed my mind that my pursuing him would be any sort of an issue. My much younger sister (she’s 20, I’m 32) also has no qualms about asking anyone out.

  40. 40

    Hi there!

    I grew up in a traditional Mexican Roman Catholic family. For
    most of my life I’ve never ever made the first move. I never made any move in fact, I thought that would make me shameful. And as a result I never got laid…

    Here is some cultural non-sense I’ve been taught (both in an implicit and explicit sense.)

    1. Women who make the first move (this is just dating wise, as in “will you be my boyfriend?”) are whores and will make men think they are whores, and it will be their fault if men don’t respect them.

    2. Women who don’t let men chase don’t value themselves, and they have poor self esteem.

    3. “When women ask men out, and not the other way around, it damages men and hurts their sense of pride. They need to do the chasing.” <—-machismo…

    4. "Women don't really want sex. They sleep with men when they are unmarried because they have no self worth."

    5. Men want sex, it's a biological urge that they can't control.

    As you can imagine… I was really confused about sex and dating. I had sex urges, I had desires, and they weren't of the romantic type either.

    When I became and atheist, on top of questioning my religious assumptions I began questioning my cultural assumptions. And I eventually threw all of the above out the window.

    With most of my experiences with men (I'm a heterosexual cis female btw) I've made the first move. Usually both asking out and initiating sex. I always asked each one if they regret that I did not give chase. Each one has always given me a big resounding "NO!" They tell me they kind of resented feeling obligated to initiate anything, and they liked feeling desired for a change. I really get that.

    As for me, it was a big boost to my sense of self esteem to be able to do that, and this also let me come to terms with my sexuality and sexual desires. Whereas before I felt it was wrong that they existed. Currently, I'm with a boyfriend who feels the same way about this whole initiating thing. In this case, he initiated the relationship, and I initiated the sexy time. Feels nice to be egalitarian. :3

  41. 41

    I am bisexual, biologically female, with a lot of transgender qualities. I think of myself largely as male; I have been male in my dreams about 80% of the time my whole life. I am married now, to a man, but while I was dating I made the first move about half the time. If it was a woman, this was no issue, but if it was a man I was interested in, he usually seemed baffled or surprised. Which baffled me, in turn. Why SHOULDN’T I approach this person I liked? Wasn’t that what you did when you liked somebody? When someone would point out that I was the girl and should passively wait to be approached, I’d counter with something witty and insightful, like “That’s just stupid.” I am positive that my male-oriented personality was part of what made me comfortable taking on a traditionally masculine role in the dating game. (Feel free to use my name if you want a quote.)

  42. 42

    Men, is it obvious enough when I say how I’d love to go to some event but that none of my friends are into it?

    No, not even close. “The Nerd” got closer with their additions to your statement, but even then some of us will misconstrue and assume you mean just as friends (or is that just me?). Honestly, I’m not sure there is such a thing as an “anvil sized hint.” Maybe that’s just me.

  43. 43

    @coryalbrect, I think that’s why Greta defined the first move as

    “the first overt, unambiguous, verbal move.” I.e., asking someone out, or otherwise making a move that can’t be interpreted as anything other than a move, and that requires an overt response. (The point being that if you toss your hair at someone and they ignore you, you can save face and pretend you weren’t making a first move — but if you say, “Would you like to go out with me?”, that’s not possible, and you have to accept the possibility and indeed the likelihood of overt rejection.)

    That’s from the previous thread. You can argue about how people perceive the “first move” in society, but for this discussion, that’s the definition she’s chosen to use. (for the record, that definition is how I’ve always understood the first move as well, but I may not be in the majority)

  44. 44

    For me (straight, male, 60) this is an illuminating thread to be reading. I should have guessed that many women would find it frustrating (at least) to be forced into a more passive role.

    I do have to respond to illuminata’s comment about the consequences of acting first:

    “Let me explain: When I have been the one to make the first move, waaaaaaaay more often than not, the guy suddenly isn’t interested.”

    I’m really not trying to be sarcastic or snarky here, but what you’re describing is called “rejection”, and it happens all the time, I think, to whoever is taking the initiative. It may have no relationship to your stepping “out of role”. It seems to me that it’s a risk that the actor simply has has to take, and I wouldn’t interpret it necessarily as a result of the role change itself.

    Since this is my first posting here, I want to thank Greta Christina for writing what has become one of the bright spots of my day.

  45. 45

    @NathanDST: But Greta never said that in this thread, so it might have been missed. My quick overview of the comments here are that women are saying “Oh, yes, I’ve made the first move many times, no I don’t feel pressure to let the man make it”, but they don’t really say *what* it was they did as that first move. As such I’m still inclined to think my hypothesis is mostly correct.

  46. 46

    Cory: my successful first moves have included backrubs, overtly sexual joking (on or offline), and literally saying to a guy I was interested in him. I never got laid by sitting around looking sexy, flipping my hair, playing hard to get, or all the other rubbish that magazines tell women to do.

  47. 47

    My lack of self-esteem, fear of rejection, and cultural taboos (I grew up in the ’60s and ’70s) all play into why I won’t make the first move. I still try sometimes (though I just said I won’t! Yes. I’m full of contradictions), if only to make sure I’m still breathing, but it’s usually not a very positive experience for me. I most fear mistaking casual interest for romantic interest. Modesty (or as I like to call it, the “Who do you think you are?!” method of child-rearing) is a big deal with my Scotch Presbyterian forebears. How could I possibly be modest if I’m presumptuous enough to think some guy might be interested in me? Gad! It’s a dilemma! And I’m not getting laid nearly enough! And menopause is hitting me HARD!

  48. 48

    That society expected me to react to advances rather than act on my own, came as a late realization for me. I had already been chasing (and sleeping with) the boys I was attracted to by then.

    This left me with the dreaded ‘reputation.’ I was labelled promiscuous, a slut, and dealt with all of the taunts, insults and shunning that go with it. My brother, all these years later, still cannot seem to understand that I am not ashamed of my past, even though he was as promiscuous, if not more, than I.

    I find the concept of sitting idle while waiting for ‘the man’ to make his move down right silly. I still have conversations with my single female friends in which i explain that it is not a bad thing to ask a guy out.

  49. 49

    @NathanDST: But Greta never said that in this thread, so it might have been missed. My quick overview of the comments here are that women are saying “Oh, yes, I’ve made the first move many times, no I don’t feel pressure to let the man make it”, but they don’t really say *what* it was they did as that first move. As such I’m still inclined to think my hypothesis is mostly correct.

    Fair enough. Greta, you probably should have defined the term from the start, on all the threads, because I think it’s true that some people are responding to a different definition than you intended — without realizing it. Also, some of us are probably reading responses thinking the author said one thing, when they meant another. Oh well, something to keep in mind for future questions. For example,

    my successful first moves have included backrubs, overtly sexual joking (on or offline), and literally saying to a guy I was interested in him.

    I would only have thought she was talking about the third item on the list, without her calling the first two a “first move.” I’ve had women do both those first two items with me, and they weren’t actually interested (I think? Pretty sure. I’ve done the first two without being interested, that I know.).

  50. PSG
    50

    Put me down as one who fails at hints. Even anvil sized ones. My friends have looked at me in disbelief before when I’ve asked if someone is interested in me. Never been diagnosed Asp, but I wonder if I had been born 20 years later…

    So when I said I don’t expect men to make the first move, I mean I’m not waiting around to hear a man say that he’s interested in me. I will express my interest in someone I find compatable, clearly and verbally, because I’ve got other shit to do. I have done this in the past both successfully and not. If ze expresses interest in me before I do so, that’s fine too. I just take longer to filter people out than many it seems.

    I really don’t have the time for and interest in this hint dropping game. If ze can’t handle my disinterest in culturally approved ambiguities, we don’t need to be dating anyways.

  51. 51

    I’m a woman who dates men, and I’ve never expected men to make the first move, nor have I ever felt like men expected me to let them make the first move. My dating experience is limited (five men ever, one of whom I’ve been married to for nearly ten years), but actually I think I was always the one who made the first move.

    One should take into account that I self-identify as a nerd and a geek and also a feminist, and so have all the men that I’ve been involved with — so we come from a particular subset of the population, one with possibly slightly different expectations than the average. Also, I am terrible at reading social cues, so it’s entirely possible that other men have tried to make the first move on me and I’ve carried on oblivious!

  52. 52

    I’ve been very fortunate in this arena: I haven’t ever really felt that social expectation, so I’ve almost always made the first move and it’s usually been greeted with enthusiasm. I’ve been told many times by the man in question that he wouldn’t have made a move himself (due to shyness, usually) and was thrilled that I did. The odd rejection hasn’t been too painful (there’s always a small sting, of course), probably partly because I try to ask in a funny, non-threatening way that leaves a Great Big Way Out if the recipient isn’t interested (e.g., “Good thing this place is so crowded or I’d probably be making inappropriate remarks about how attractive I think you are”).

    However… I’m bisexual and I don’t have anything like that confidence with women. I don’t feel any particular social expectation in either direction, but I’m much less likely to make a move, so obviously *something* got internalized, even if it’s only lack of self-confidence.

  53. 53

    Straight, cisgendered female here, early twenties. Even though my experience with dating has been nonexistent, I’ve definitely felt the expectation that the guy makes the first move. It goes hand-in-hand with the assumption that the woman should make subtle hints, and I’ve run into problems with that–on two occasions I’ve had a guy who was hitting on me assume that I was giving signals, when really I was just being polite or friendly. There’s a lot of potential for miscommunication when it comes to nonverbal hints.

    Despite the confusion that results from these twin expectations, I don’t think I’d be able to make the first move in the way that it’s been defined in these threads, at least at the moment. I don’t know if it’s because of social conditioning or just due to general shyness and insecurity. I haven’t had many guys show any interest in me, so usually I just assume anyone I’m interested in won’t return my feelings.

    Recently I found myself in a new situation (being interested and thinking he might be interested, too), and I was embarrassed to find myself making hints instead of being forward about my feelings. I’d always wondered why people tiptoed around the issue of being interested in someone romantically and/or sexually. In fact, I’d even had a discussion about it with this particular guy, and yet here I was sitting very close to him at every opportunity but not knowing how to say, “I want to kiss you.” Perhaps that’s understandable, since I’d never kissed anyone before, but it was still odd to find myself falling into that role.

    On the other hand, I was the one who said “I want to visit you,” so I wasn’t totally passive–I initiated the situation that led to the kissing. Hopefully if I find myself in a similar situation again I’ll be more able to verbalize my physical desires, too.

  54. 54

    This topic has an interesting correlation to the Elevatorgate Incident.

    I’ve already mentioned my hypothesis, but let me restate it:
    – most men report they feel obligated/pressured to make the first move
    – most women report that no, they do not feel obligated/pressured to make the first move and also report they have often done so
    – men are considering only the overt, unambiguous actions with the possibility of embarrassment to be the first move
    – women are considering the flirty looks, the indirect statements and other hints (sometimes called the “plausibly deniable actions”) as the first move
    – this results in the lack of synchrony between the two threads here on Greta’s blog because the two groups are not using the same metrics and thus reporting different things

    A number of women have also reported a “well I made a move but he didn’t respond, so I moved on”. I would think the same desynchronization as above applies to this, too. She made the first move by her definition but not by his.

    I think it should be easy to see how this asymmetry is going pressure men to hit on women indiscriminately because that almost is the only way they will ever have a chance of starting a relationship. Add a bit of social ineptness and/or a bit of male privilege to the mix and the social expectation that says women make hints and men make the first (overt) move leads inevitably to ElevatorGate-like scenarios.

    Some how, we need to find a way to change that without blaming people for perpetuating it (from either direction) and instead encourage the to move along to a better way.

  55. 55

    I have felt that pressure, but mostly ignored it.

    This has at times led to me being regarded as somewhat intimidating. Also bitchy or slutty or a dyke (go figure).

    I now regard this as a useful way to weed out people who aren’t worth my time.

  56. 56

    Should have been clear…my first move is usually “I like you. Do you think you feel the same?” Or, if things get more serious, “do you want to do it with me?” In relationships, I tend to just say “I’m horny” and we see where things go from there. I usually initiate.

  57. 57

    I’m a straight woman who was single in the 90’s, and I absolutely didn’t feel it was necessary to wait around for the man to make the first move. It’s counter-productive to expect men to make the first move — it gives them the wrong idea right off the bat.

    If a guy feels threatened by (or has a problem with) women who are capable of being direct about what they want, I’d rather know it right away so I don’t waste my time on him.

    (In case it’s relevant: Today I’m happily married — ten years and counting!)

  58. 58

    Well, I grew up with a lot of feminist ideas, so I didn’t expect men to make the first move, but I did expect there to be evidence of mutual attraction form which one of us would decide to make the first move. Being insecure and shy when I was younger, that effectively lead me to waiting for a guy to show romantic interest.

    But that didn’t work out so well. I am an ethnicity that is not considered appealing sexually (South Asian) by most of American culture. Actually, my ethnicity just absent in American ideas about sex. There are lots of stupid stereotypes that guys have admitted float around in their head regarding certain types of Asians, such as that we’re going to have arranged marriages, or that we want to only date men of the same culture so our families won’t get too pissed off, etc etc. Or some of them are just so oblivious to the idea that a South Asian woman might want to date (or sleep with) them, that it… I don’t know.. doesn’t occur to them to be attracted to South Asians. (South Asians are just totally absent in our culture’s views of sex, so I guess I’m invisible to men’s sexual desires? I’m sure there are more articulate ways of putting this, but you get the idea.) I had plenty of good male friends in high school and early college, but none of them ever showed romantic interest, so I assumed there was none, so I was too scared of being reject and nothing happened.

    So, in the middle of college, I got desperate. Goddamnit, I wanted romantic companionship or at least to get laid. Heck, I just wanted to know what kissing was like. By now, when all my other (white, hispanic, East Asian, flamingly butch and a few black) female friends had men hitting on them left and right, I figured I must be quite a repulsive woman, and I’ve essentially been rejected by many many men, so I might as well go hit on a few men and see if any of them are desperate and/or promiscuous enough to be intimate with a repulsive woman like me. (Don’t worry, I was disabused of the notion that I’m repulsive a while back. Now I know men just don’t know any better than to appreciate how hot I am… that came off as a joke, right?)

    Making the first moved worked. It worked great. However, a lot of men were so amazed by a woman being so forthright (and a minority they never expected it from, conservative prudish Asexual Asians and all that crap), that they asked me, in so many words, “what kind of a slutty freak are you?” Some of them are put off by a woman making the first move. Oh well, their loss.

    So, I have learned that I HAVE to make the first move, because few men will make the first move ever to a South Asian woman like me. I have been absolutely flabbergasted the few times men have initiated flirting with me. (It’s always some super conservative duchebag anyways, so I’ve learned to assume guys who make the first move are likely to be the kind I don’t want to be around.)

    Btw, now I’m poly. That’s relatively new, but I have stories about that if you are interested. It’s better and worse than more mainstream dating.

  59. 59

    since this apparently needs clarification, in my previous posts when I say I make the first move I do mean the first action that lacks “plausible deniability”. When I said I invited myself to their places on vacation, I mean that literally; when I say that on half the occasions there was asking for dates, I was the one doing the asking, I mean that I uttered the words “would you like to go out with me” or an equivalent. I did not count “hints” as first moves.

  60. 60

    When I was a silly teenager (that adjective is a modifier) I thought that any boy who might possibly be interested would ask me out (and therefore, of course, that the total lack of asking meant that I was unattractive).

    I fancied several boys between the ages of 11 and 18, but apart from mooning around writing Valentine acrostics and telling everyone except the boy concerned did nothing about it (which is a shame, because I think at least one of them might have said yeah, why not).

    Once at university I managed half a dozen encounters of varying types. The two Actual Boyfriends I definitely initiated – the first tipsy flirting, a couple of subtle hints and then full-on snog once Other Friend had left; the second sitting close to in the bar and then on the floor by his chair in my friend’s room, and just general conversation such that the other four people in the room were equally aware that Something Was Going On here. [With the result that I have never actually Been On A Date.]

    The Man I Didn’t Dump My Now-Husband For did ask me out (well, invited me to meet him in the bar after our respective evening activities) but I had already spent the previous evening in the bar being vaguely flirtatious [yes I feel guilty about that. I thought he knew. I forgot he wasn’t Nick].

    (Oh, and the second of those boyfriends was the man I spoke about on the previous post, who felt he had to do the proposing in order to be a Proper Man.)

  61. 61

    I’ve always approached men. My dating history has basically consisted of me finding a guy attractive and saying ‘hey, you, over there. Come here. We’re going to date now. Sound good?’ To which they agree, usually. Either that, or I let them ‘chase’ me, but I generally lead them to it or initiate the next step in the relationship, until they get comfortable. It sounds kind of arrogant, I guess, but a lot of the guys I’m interested in tend to either be timid or (according to a couple of them) are uncertain about how to approach me without coming off as a random jerk for hitting on me.

    I’ve had guys turn me down, but I’ve never had a guy dislike that I made the first move. Usually they like having the pressure off them. The kind of guy who would have a problem with me initiating is the kind of guy I try to steer clear of. That’d be a huge red flag.

  62. 62

    Yes. I understood that of course I could ask a guy out, but only at the risk of looking desperate, and that’s not the first impression a girl wants to make, haha. I should provide some context here: my main obstacles to dating when I was younger were the fact that I was a fundy (of the variety that has a problem with virtually any form of dating), and that I started off extremely shy and awkward. I took it for granted that virtually no boys would be interested in me and they pretty much confirmed my suspicions by never asking me out. I think I can count the number of times I was asked out in both high school and college on one hand, and one of them was almost certainly a prank. Once I decided that dating wasn’t a big obstacle to my walk with God and learned to navigate social situations with more grace, my opportunities expanded exponentially. I discovered that all I had to do was stare back at a boy I caught looking at me to have him eating out of my hand, so to speak. I didn’t want to look desperate but I also figured that if I was already challenging my upbringing by dating at all, it need not be a big deal to be upfront about the process. When our status was uncertain and we were just flirting and spending time together, I asked my now-husband if he was my boyfriend or not, point blank. I really liked him and wanted to snatch him up for myself right away, with no chance for misunderstandings or interlopers. 😉

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