Here are two stories showing that the world we are asking for is not impossible. Two stories of young women getting falling-down intoxicated, in the presence of men.
This is how it should be when this happens.
Giliell, professional cynic -Ilk-:
I was a stupid teen once, like most people, and I did a lot of stupid things teens will do because they think their parents are ignorant idiots when they try to tell them that this is stupid.
So I got really drunk one night.
And then smoked weed.
Together with older guys (by older I mean just no longer teens).
To cut a long story short, at some point I threw up, and I really wanted to take a shower, because that was gross, and because I couldn’t walk anymore those guys helped me to the shower, undressed me, helped me shower, and at some point in that shower my memory stops and only returns when I wake up the next morning. In a clean T and undies. In my bedroll. Completely unraped.
I shouldn’t have to consider myself lucky for that.
No. This shouldn’t be luck. This should be the expected outcome. And it can be.
RQ:
You and me both. I’ve had guys help me puke my guts out and never try a thing; I’ve chugged whiskey from the bottle just like one of the guys and subsequently passed out, to no negative result; I’ve been walked home, lent beds, lent clothing, with never a worry for my safety, even in a houseful of guys and the only woman staying overnight, with a party on the first floor (I had Saturday classes, so Friday nights were spent with this houseful of guys) and never a spot of trouble.
I know a factor in some of these stories is a lack of so-called sexual morals: it was a very sexually open sort of society, with a musical-chairs of partners and a no-hard-feelings attitude for anyone refusing to partner up with anyone else. And, I might add, a lack of mean-spirited gossip (in the sense that no one was ever put down or ridiculed or bullied for their sexual exploits). Heck, a friend of mine was on the point of penis-insertion with one of these guys, and she freaked out, said no, and you know what he did? He backed off, put his penis away, and made sure she was okay, and has never (to my knowledge) pressured or teased her about it in any way. And nobody got blamed for anything.
The factor in the second kind of these stories (university roomies) is, again, a sexual openness – it wasn’t the same level of sexual freedom, but several of the guys were volunteers with the Sexual Education Centre, and took a lot of pride in being knowledgeable about women and sex and generally not being assholes. I suppose they were as arrogant about it as any university students would be, but at least they got most things right. Playing strip foosball? No problem. It’s strip foosball, not foreplay. :P
Funny how neither one of those factors rests on denying women the opportunity to have fun as people…
Do you see the common factors? Do you see how certain cultural expectations within these groups were set? Funny what happens when we expect better of men, when we educate people that intoxication is not consent, that they should get consent before proceeding with sex, and if consent isn’t crystal-clear, don’t have sex.
Many naysayers have wanted to pretend we can’t have a world in which women are able to drink themselves under the table with the guys, and expect nothing worse than a hangover the next day. They’re wrong. We can educate kids and teens, and reinforce our expectations. Yes, we can’t stop every single human being from being a predator. But we can make it impossible for them to operate in a group. We can make it impossible for them to find cover for their boys-will-be-boys, hey-we-were-drunk-she-just-regrets-it excuses. In some spaces, that world is already here.
It’s not impossible. Just very hard work, and a will to do it. If you haven’t got that will, I suggest you stand aside and let us get to work.
Yes it’s entirely about attitudes – being educated about sexuality and consent, being open to the reality of human sexuality not some frustrated mutant version of it.
As a male, I am deeply, deeply offended at the suggestion that I would have sex with someone who was incapacitated (in any way). In fact, none of my male friends (nor any of my male enemies, if it comes to that) would behave in such an immoral fashion.
Early in my college days, I attended a party where hard liquor was served, and one of the female guests got a little wasted. We put her in the bedroom and let her sleep it off. … … … … And that’s it. No big drama, no one had to rescue her, no “white knighting”. She got drunk, we put her to bed, she slept through the rest of the party. No biggie.
It’s not biology. Yes, we can “help ourselves”. This suggestion that our penises will get all rapey and act of their own volition in the presence of a drunk woman is blithering idiocy.
Rape is a choice, pure and simple. And it is offensive to declare otherwise.
I’ll put one more out there – I can speak firsthand to the awareness even a sloppy drunk guy actually has to a “let’s stop there” signal, even a non-verbal one. I wasn’t much of a hookup guy in college, but had one memorable occasion where a casual/fun one-night-stand seemed imminent. My date and I were 30 minutes into a topless makeout session, in a secluded hotel room, and both pretty blitzed. At one point, I moved my hand downward; she put her hand on my wrist and pulled it back up. That was ALL I needed to know. Things went no further; we made out some more, got tired, and fell asleep. Woke up with the world’s worst hangover and a 100% un-raped date*.
This probably isn’t news to anyone here, but there is no such thing as “too drunk to understand ‘no'”. Anyone who says otherwise should be considered a dangerous/creepy/rapey kinda person who you should work to dis-invite from any occasion on which you or any friends of yours are planning to have some alcohol.
* If I could go back, I’d still smack myself upside the head for allowing this non-accidental potential-for-drunken-sex circumstance to come about in the first place. I’m now firmly grounded in the belief that “getting drunk with” and “having sex with” should be as mutually exclusive as “getting drunk with” and “going skydiving with”.
In college, a women was into me at a party. She had been trying to hook up with me for days. I was young, naive, and sex scared (opposite of sex positive). She was drunk. After I did not react to her proposals while she was drunk, she went into the hall where a group of guys surrounded her like sharks. She was in no way able to consent. She was near passed out, lying on the hallway floor.
I was a string bean. When I can out to the hall and saw her in no state for sex I intervened. I got my roommate and I carried her about a 1/2 mile through hallways and adjoining corridors to her room.
I left her in her bed, unmolested and unraped. By me, or others. Even when I put her in bed and she asked me. She was drunk. Did not understand and could not consent. I guess this makes me less of a male?
Anyone that would have had sex with her at that time makes me sick.