How the Morehouse Football Team ruined Dear White People and proved its point

dear white people

Response from Morehouse SafeSpace president here.

As a filmmaker, intersectional scholar, and a huge fan and supporter of the original trailer and campaign for “Dear White People,” I was ecstatic to be able to go see the film here in Columbia, SC.  The film itself didn’t disappoint.  Clearly influenced by Wes Anderson in cinematography, but wholly unique in tone, it was a brilliantly funny, biting, and moving film.  The acting, the directing, the cinematography were all superb, even before you take into account the origin story and budget of the film.  The experience of seeing the film, however, was incredibly unpleasant.  Spoilers ahead.

Just as the trailers were ending and the movie starting, a hundred people started pouring into the theater.  This was the Morehouse College Football Team, here in Columbia to play Benedict College tomorrow.  Morehouse is an all-male historically black college in Atlanta not too far from my own undergraduate institution of Emory.  It is the alma mater of Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.  As the movie started, I was excited that this many people were in the theater to see the movie.  It was a short-lived excitement.

There are three main plots in “Dear White People,” and one of them focuses on a black gay kid named Lionel, played by “Everybody Hates Chris” star Tyler James Williams, who doesn’t fit in with any group — not with gay kids, not with white kids, and not with black kids, who have historically treated him with homophobia and cruelty.  His story is about the toxic effect of homophobia in the black community.  In addition to the heterosexual romances involving all the other characters, there is also a budding romance between Lionel and another man.  The initial hints at this romance did not win the Morehouse College Football Team’s approval.  They started saying homophobic things every time Lionel was onscreen.  When Lionel had a same-sex kiss, the team went into a frenzy — everyone turned on their phones and said they weren’t looking, they started yelling, “What kind of movie is this?”  Several of them walked out, others started yelling at anyone on their team for looking at the screen when the kiss happened, “Man, you looked at that, I saw you!”  “What is this gay shit?”  “Some of y’all didn’t turn your heads away!”

It was nauseating.  But it got worse.

Lionel has a major heroic moment toward the end of the film in which he breaks up a racist party being held by an entitled white jerk, who is, more or less, the antagonist of the film, and who verbally and sexually harassed Lionel over his sexuality throughout the film.  The racist white guy tackles Lionel and pins him down.  In retaliation, Lionel kisses him (this freaked out the audience again), but the racist white guy responds by punching Lionel repeatedly in the face.

They cheered.  This room full of black men who attend Dr. King’s alma mater.  They cheered for the racist white guy because the black man he was being allowed to beat without repercussion was a faggot.

When the beating stopped, the Morehouse player behind me said that the white guy should have kept hitting him because that’s what he got for being gay.

I want you to imagine yourself in a dark room with a hundred physically fit men rooting for a hate crime to be perpetrated against a gay man.  It was terrifying.  It was horrifying.  It was depressing.  Can you imagine what a kid on that team who was gay would have felt?

When the film was over, it was all the men of Morehouse could talk about.  Who hadn’t closed their eyes and looked away when there was gay kissing?  One player said of Tyler James Williams, “Man, I must’ve watched every episode of ‘Everybody Hates Chris’ back in the day.  Can’t believe he’d go out like that.  Shit kills me.”

I don’t know if Morehouse College offers LGBT sensitivity training, but it should have someone come speak to the football team.  Even if you don’t approve of homosexuality, to come to a city as a football team, representing your college and your hometown, and to spit hate and vitriol in a room that includes other people, including LGBT people — it is not OK.  What kind of school sends out ambassadors of hate?  Can it be the same one that sent out Dr. King?  Hewing to the stereotype of black homophobia makes Morehouse and the black community weaker, and there are real victims.  Lionel may be fictional, but his treatment was not.  It’s a shame that “Dear White People”‘s message of acceptance didn’t reach everyone in the room.

EDITED TO ADD: Raynard Ware, a member of the Morehouse Football Team who was there last night offered this comment below, and I thought I should highlight it:

As a student and football player for the Maroon Tigers, I was disturb by the reaction of my teammates during certain scenes of the movie. The remarks and outbursts were upright embarrassing and prejudice. I am big on reputation and presentation. However, this is not a true reputation of our institution. We are sincerely apologetic that the loud embarrassing remarks were heard and not the intellectual discussion, which we also engaged in after the movie. Sorry to give off such a poor perception to the public eye, we ARE apologetic.

Thank you for bringing this to our attention, some of my teammates needed to know the perception they give to people.

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How the Morehouse Football Team ruined Dear White People and proved its point

277 thoughts on “How the Morehouse Football Team ruined Dear White People and proved its point

  1. 1

    Ashley — This really upsets me and I wasn’t even there! I’m glad that you’re safe and no longer at the theater, but it’s really upsetting that this happened. I hope that your article is widely read and that it helps to change this situation.

  2. 2

    Jesus, that’s a creepy story. My own experience of seeing the movie in Atlanta was a bit more sedate. As far as I could tell, everybody in the audience with me recognized the kiss as the cheer moment, not the punching. However, I was a little disappointed to discover that, as far as I saw, I was only white person in the theater. I was kind of hoping the film festival cachet and the hilarious trailer would draw in a non-negligible white audience actually interested in being educated, but that wasn’t in evidence on Saturday (at least, not at the late showing). It was a fun movie, though. Made me proud to have chipped in my ten bucks back when they were doing their Indiegogo campaign.

  3. 3

    Oh, and the selection of trailers shown before the movie was a lesson on American racism all by itself. The only thing the first four trailered movies had in common with each other or with “Dear White People” were black protagonists. Then there were a couple of trailers for arty movies (in which all the characters were white people) thrown in at the end, I guess because of the film festival stuff. It strikes me as kind of fucked up that nobody took a look at that list and said, “Is this really the best juxtaposition with the film?” But I guess it’s probably all pretty much done by a computer.

  4. 5

    When critiquing a group such as the Morehouse College football team, one must take into consideration the influence of masculinity on football teams and players in this mysogonistic nation as the culture of football grows and develops rapidly. To Make a suggestion that males ,at this all male institution, should take LBGT proves that the research shown in the critique, was not fully taken into consideration. Taken into account that the institution consist primarily of a student body in which over half of the population consist of homosexually active individuals. These individuals are more accepted than the so called, “normal people” at our institution. This blog is an unnecessary attack on one of the greatest institutions in the world.

  5. 7

    This blog is an unnecessary attack on one of the greatest institutions in the world.

    The people “attacking” the institution are their own football team. Why don’t you try calling them out for their vitriol?

  6. 8

    @Temitayo Agoro #5

    as the culture of football grows and develops rapidly

    What the hell are you talking about? And if football culture is doing all this growing and development, surely the Morehouse Football Team, with all their hatred and bigotry are surely not the way forward. If you want to help the name of your institution, I suggest you do it primarily by apologising for the behaviour of those who were representing your institution that day instead of attacking a blogger who rightfully called out their dispicable behaviour.

  7. 9

    @5, Temitayo Agoro

    one must take into consideration the influence of masculinity on football teams and players in this mysogonistic nation

    No, they really mustn’t. If one were to say, “One must take into consideration the influence of slavery on Southerners in this raciest nation,” as a defense for institutionalized racism, would you accept that? I really hope not. The influences may make the behavior understandable, but it does by no means makes the behavior acceptable. There’s a difference here.

    Also, there are plenty of white racists who will claim blacks have it better than whites because blacks supposedly get lots of government assistance in the form of welfare and food stamps. Those claims are BS. I likewise find your claims of gays getting better treatment to be dubious, especially since we have a blog post right here indicating that there is at least a sector of the student population that doesn’t. I will also note that you don’t deny this. In fact, your defense of the team suggests that you don’t even doubt the reported behavior. Are you seriously trying to suggest that straight people are treated so poorly that they receive treatment worst than what is reported here?

  8. 10

    On more of a side note, relating to the movie itself, I saw some promotional material for the movie that included some benevolent racism and sexism. That was disappointing to see, and I wasn’t sure if I wanted to see the movie after that, feeling that maybe the writer needed to have a “Dear male people” movie made just for him. I hope that kind of garbage is not in the film.

  9. 11

    I apologize if I am misunderstood. I am a proud participant of this loving football team and was there last night when this so called “situation” occurred. I apologize for the discomfort my team caused but it seems apparent that when a large group of black males congregate together, the automatic assumption is something of trouble and negativity. The 50 (not 100) student athletes are being framed in a situation that is very trivial. Can we fix the issues by addressing and asking the right questions. Where is the love and positivity that we all, as human beings, must promote to come together. Thank you for your time and I love you all. Have a great day and an even better life. 🙂

    -peace, love, happiness

  10. 13

    As a student and football player for the Maroon Tigers, I was disturb by the reaction of my teammates during certain scenes of the movie. The remarks and outbursts were upright embarrassing and prejudice. I am big on reputation and presentation. However, this is not a true reputation of our institution. We are sincerely apologetic that the loud embarrassing remarks were heard and not the intellectual discussion, which we also engaged in after the movie. Sorry to give off such a poor perception to the public eye, we ARE apologetic.

    Thank you for bringing this to our attention, some of my teammates needed to know the perception they give to people.

    1. 13.1

      Raynard — Thank you for taking the time to come here and comment, I really appreciate it. As an LGBT person, it means a lot to me that the team is aware of and cares about this — I am going to add your comment to the body of the email so that readers see you’re are on top of it. I wish you and the team well.

  11. Nal
    14

    This article is lacking historical content…. Not to long ago (3-5 yrs), there were gay Morehouse men wearing skirts, make up and house coats to class….. This is simply the pendulum swinging the other way. The football players are simply the most visible on campus. However, there is a large contingency on campus and many alumni that were very upset at the way the gay students chose to express themselves…. They simply went to far.

  12. 16

    Temi why are you trying to clear this up with people who will probably do nothing but talk all of their lives. It is easy to “talk” and blog but it means nothing unless you are actually doing the work to back up your words. Temi you have been reared doing the work and need not legitimize all of these who we have not seen when we are out doing the real work. They will continue to do nothing but talk and write because it is easy. Their talk means nothing until we meet them while doing the work! I am heading out to do some real work now….let them invite others to their community service public service events.-mom

  13. 18

    Thanks for this post. The issue is not the embarrassment to the football team or the schools reputation. The issue is the lethal harm to gay people. Its all tolerated. The verbal abuse will lead to bashing, which is tolerated and expected. People are being slain quietly for being gay. Bryan Higgins was killed by homophobes recently even in a sanctuary city like San Francisco. No where is safe. This is so ugly and completely unsurprising.

  14. 19

    Kim — Due respect, but you don’t know the lives of anyone here, not me and not the commenters, and it is incredibly rude of you to come here wielding false accusations about our work. I am an activist, it is my full-time job, it is my academic work, and it is what I do with my free time. Consider yourself invited to participate, would you like me to connect you to a group local to yourself working in LGBT, women’s, or secular rights? Just let me know where you are and I’d be happy to do so.

  15. 20

    Oookay…

    I am a frontline medic and doctor for charity in India. I do “real work”. I do “real work” to the tune of nearly 50 to 100 patients a day.

    Kim, it’s quite simple. If these people are “all talk” then so are you. What you define by real work is pathetically small if we start setting the bar at the level I do work at. 7 Days a week, 80 hours a week. No holidays. I hold a second job here blogging but I don’t count that. The blog lets people know about what I do. The people who people like me help.

    You think American Football is hard? It is. But put it this way? No one ever dies because an American Football player doesn’t sports his sportsiest. I am sure your real work is worthier than blogging but if we are going to be ranking jobs on a hierarchy then remember…. people like me are out there and we do the same work as Ashley Miller up there.

    If it wasn’t for people like Ashley, people like me who don’t spend all that much time writing would be poorly funded. I always say that in terms of social work we must do what we can do. Not give up our day jobs to work and starve ourselves but do what we can. Ashley does what she can. Who are you to criticise her when you do not do what she does?

    FYI? Football isn’t work. It’s a sport. It should be treated as such and the University should have a basic standard of behaviour. Had you been on my rugby or rowing team and demonstrated such behaviour and such excuses we would have shown you the door no matter how talented at hand egg you are.

  16. 21

    Morehouse is a historically black, CHRISTIAN, college. Many of the men that go there stand on the biblical standards of sexuality which is why those gay men who were dressing androgynously were reprimanded and made to dress appropriately. If the standards of Morehouse college is to not believe or condone homosexual behavior, they have that right but to be a Christian or CHRIST-like, means to be tolerant and exuding love. Respect is required when calling yourself a Christian. and in this day and age where ALL BLACK LIVES MATTER, you can’t pick and choose which Black Lives are the most valuable.
    Hey racist white man. We want equality but here’s this black faggot we don’t like. You can beat him up until we can reach common ground. That’s pretty much what this situation is. And to the people defending the football team. Im sure Morehouse doesn’t condone intolerance of any kind but your school’s policy doesn’t change the mind of a homophobe. Half of these players are probably closeted gay/bisexual or questions anyway. Probably going with the crowd to not appear homosexual. There is no justification for this behavior. Morehouse and most of it’s student and homophobic and intolerant.

  17. 22

    Good God. To see some of you people defending this. Describing gay people as “going too far.” Carping about how unfair the “perception” is.

    Jesus fucking CHRIST. Listen to yourselves. Don’t you have a SHRED of empathy for what this feels like to gay people? What is wrong with you?

  18. 24

    As a professor at Morehouse, I must say that I am aghast, but not surprised. Issues of homophobia are rarely addressed on campus. I spend more time in the classroom helping students interrogate their homophobia than I have at any other institution. I watch my non CIS students get isolated, disrespected, and shut out of major conversations because “this is not the image we want to portray”. Since this trickles down from administration to faculty to students, it is no wonder the football players behaved that way. I am a lone person trying to stem the tide of homophobia at the House, and it is an exhausting task indeed.

  19. 25

    As a black woman, from my perspective, this entire situation is a huge misunderstanding. There are multiple ways to look at this particular case and story. First, the original blog post sounds very biased, for the author to not have experienced Spelman or Morehouse first hand. Like she said she went to Emory. As for the Morehouse football team, and black educated men, they should be well aware of their ignorance to the situations of the LGBT community and simply not comment negatively due to their lack of understanding a particular group. Overall, no one should be negatively commenting because that only allows and falsely justifies us to judge other groups that we have no individual information or personal experiences from. I would like to congratulate and give slight props to Mr. Raynard Ware for appropriately apologizing on behalf of his team.

  20. 26

    Not to long ago (3-5 yrs), there were gay Morehouse men wearing skirts, make up and house coats to class….. This is simply the pendulum swinging the other way. The football players are simply the most visible on campus. However, there is a large contingency on campus and many alumni that were very upset at the way the gay students chose to express themselves…. They simply went to far.

    So… did the gay Morehouse men stop wearing drag to class because of threats of violent homophobic attacks on them?

    Is that what you mean by “the pendulum swinging the other way”?

    How does one “go too far” in expressing oneself? I’d submit that making threats of violent homophobic attacks qualifies. Perhaps even loudly cheering on a film description of a violent homophobic attack. Not sure how you can apply “go too far” to something as harmless as clothing choice.

  21. 28

    As a black woman, from my perspective, this entire situation is a huge misunderstanding. There are multiple ways to look at this particular case and story.

    Okay, let’s see how you spin a football team coming to a movie and cheering on the beating of a gay person.

    First, the original blog post sounds very biased, for the author to not have experienced Spelman or Morehouse first hand. Like she said she went to Emory.

    Oh yes, of course. She was only THERE. Can’t trust her account of things unless she went to the right school.

    Overall, no one should be negatively commenting because that only allows and falsely justifies us to judge other groups that we have no individual information or personal experiences from.

    We can damn well judge their actions. I don’t care if they’re all pillars of the community who love their mothers and volunteer at the animal shelter, they still behaved very badly at this movie.

  22. 30

    “Just to be clear…. I am in no way condoning homophobia…..”

    Protip: There are no non-homophobic statements that need that clarification. In other words, if you need to clarify that, what you said was almost certainly homophobic.

  23. AMM
    33

    Ashley McGarthy @25:

    “There are multiple ways to look at this particular case and story. First, the original blog post sounds very biased, for the author to not have experienced Spelman or Morehouse first hand. Like she said she went to Emory.”

    .
    I grew up in the South (“Ante-Bellum”, I always like to say) during the Civil Rights era. One of the most popular memes that Southern racists and segregationists used to dismiss critics from outside the South was, “it may look like we’re oppressing these [blacks], but you are just misunderstanding things because you aren’t Southern.” Even as a small child, even during the period when I knew no better than to believe many of the popular racist lies, I knew that that meme was utter BS. So when you use the same logic — “it’s only because you never went to Morehouse that you think that what those football players did deserves criticism” — I call BS.

    You don’t have to have gone to any particular college, or be of any particular race, sex, sexual orientation, etc., to know that it is immoral to cheer on as one person beats someone else up. (Perhaps not as immoral as doing the beating yourself, but by cheering him on, you’re an accessory to the beating.) The _point_ of the OP, which a lot of Ms. Miller’s critics seem to have missed, is that it’s sad and ironic to see members of an oppressed minority cheering on as a member of the oppressor class oppresses a member of their own minority. And it’s yet another example of how members of an oppressed group adopt the bigotries of their oppressors.

    BTW, just to be clear: I said “members”, not “all members.” We have right in this comment thread someone from the Morehouse football team who clearly did not approve of this cr*p. I have no doubt that, like at any other college, there are some homophobes and some people working to eradicate homophobia. My concern is (and I would think the concern of any thoughtful, ethical members of the Morehouse community would be): which side is seen as the socially acceptable one? When I was a child, expressing racist ideas was seen as normal and nothing to be ashamed of, it was contradicting those ideas that was likely to get you ridiculed, ostracized, or worse. Now, half a century later, it is mostly the other way around: now, expressing blatantly racist things* is not acceptable in polite society, to the point that for a politician to do so is a career-killer. This incident leaves the impression that, at least among the football players, Morehouse is with homophobia where the USA was with racism 60 years ago. I hope that that impression is false, but people from Morehouse coming in and saying, “you just don’t understand” is not the way to change our impression.

    * Unfortunately, racist “dog whistles” still seem to be okay in a lot of circles.

  24. 34

    “Did somebody not tell them that they go to Gayhouse? They were probably checking their phones because they were looking at their Jack’d and A4A notifications.”

    Using gay accusations in defense of gay people is also homophobic because it plays into the idea that there’s something negative about being gay and that it is worthy of using as an insult against homophobic people, as a result. We don’t go around telling people who are racist, as an insult, that they are the race that they’re discriminating against because we recognize that doing so would further marginalize people of that race. Why, then, do you think it is OK to behave that way when talking about LGBT people?

  25. 35

    I’m a Morehouse Alum, and I’d be the first to admit the school is homophobic. The school was founded in the basement of a church, and some 147 years later, its student body is still overwhelmingly religious and socially conservative. (Morehouse will never be a bastion of liberalism.) This was true during my years there (2002-06), and it’s true now. One only need to Google “Morehouse dresscode” or “gay assault Morehouse”. The incidents themselves is bad enough, but how the school handled them is worse.

    I am not surprised by their reactions, because believe it or not, many college age Americans Black or otherwise will react the same way. Let’s not forget, they are college students. One of Morehouse’s greatest Alum’s, Howard Thurman, said “over the heads of her students, Morehouse holds a crown that she challenges them to grow tall enough to wear.” Let’s help these students grow. They are young. I was not the same person I was at 22 and a Morehouse Man, as I was at 18 and a Man of Morehouse, and I attribute that to my experience at Morehouse and Spelman.

    http://www.essence.com/2009/11/16/the-morehouse-dress-code/

  26. 36

    I am tired off ALL the articles I have been seeing, “highlighting” “black homophobia” during Dear White People, these articles have been written (almost exclusively by White people). Ironic right?
    Let me start by saying…NOT ALL BLACK PEOPLE ARE HOMOPHOBIC! There are plenty of us that work each and every day on the FRONT LINES against ALL types of oppression, homophobia included. I’m sick and tired of white people going to the theater and coming out saying this is a “black” problem.

    Did ya’ll even WATCH the movie? Or where you so busy trying to find any way to remove the attention and discomfort from your white supremacist liberal bullshit, that you leave trying to tackle the issue of “black homophobia” because that is another cause for you to fight for that distances you from YOUR every day oppression of black and brown bodies? You mean to tell me…NO ONE of any other race has made homophobic remarks or comments to write articles about? Or is it just when something comes from a black and brown body that is already labeled as vicious and uncaring that it is a problem?

    I am not excusing the Morehouse Football team, they are as implicated in this as anyone who perpetuates systems of oppression, but I am also not excusing the white liberals who are so scared to hold a mirror up to their own white supremacist ideology that they can go to a film ALL about the dismantling of white supremacy in “liberal white spaces” and still find a way to make social issues a “black problem”.

  27. 37

    Nowhere did she imply she thought there was any connection between their race and their homophobia. She did find it horrifying that they actually cheered for the racist antagonist of the film, because his actions were apparently okay when directed towards a gay man.

  28. 38

    Hi Day,

    I don’t know about all the articles, I just wrote my own experience, but I think it’s worth noting the pattern and it’s worth pointing out that I am a privileged white woman — you are right to do so. It’s also worth pointing out that this is a blog post by an individual activist, not a major news publication, and it’s a recounting of an upsetting experience I had. It is not a treatise.

    I don’t think (or say) that homophobia is a “black problem”; It’s a problem and this post is the story of how I experienced one expression of it. I understand that you’re not a follower of my blog, but I have written more about white people’s homophobia, sexism, and racism than about any other group. It’s what I’m most frequently exposed to, it’s what has been most deeply hurtful in my own life. I don’t think it’s Morehouse’s problem, I don’t think it’s football’s problem. I think it’s everybody’s problem. And I think it’s just one problem among many.

    I also think that the message of the movie wasn’t just about dismantling white supremacy but also about imagining everyone complexly and acknowledging that we are all complicated individuals who do things that are good and bad, right and wrong, foolish and clever.

    You can take away from this post that I am just a privileged white woman and so my experience doesn’t matter, not to you, not to Morehouse, and not to people of color, and I’d understand if you did. Others certainly have as well. I told this story because I thought it mattered, because I was deeply upset by the behavior I experienced, and because I think we, as a society, black and white, can do better by each other. And that’s the message I got from the film.

  29. 39

    Now, I am currently a student at Morehouse College and I can personally say that I am not shocked at the behavior of certain, if not most, of the members of our football team. They routinely conduct themselves in such a way around and off campus that is honestly embarrassing to the rest of the student population (along with a majority of the basketball team) but to generalize the campus as homophobic or hateful to the LGBTQ community is unfair. I personally apologize to the author for their behavior and am not even trying to make any excuses for it, but the same behavior would be seen from any football team at any level of education so please do not try to hold our students to a standard that we don’t hold them to. For the most part, a majority of them come to this school to play football only, not to learn or immerse themselves in learning whether it be academically or culturally. They are almost an entire separate entity from the rest of the student body. I however understand that they are “representatives” of our campus, but they are terrible at doing such. As far as some of these comments attempting to defend their behavior, just cut the shit.

  30. 40

    “Don’t you have a SHRED of empathy for what this feels like to gay people? What is wrong with you?”

    Honestly, as a gay alumnus of Morehouse College I take far more issue with the article bashing my alma mater than I do with the actions of the few (not 100…we don’t even have 100 member on the team) members of the football team.

    While yes their actions may have been immature, but I don’t recall the last time I read an article about the immature actions of white college students in any theater. They’re young. This happens in movies period. Not everyone is going to agree with homosexuality. Get over it. That affects your life personally in now way. You can’t call for or expect others to “grow up” when you’re being overly sensitive and in your feelings about someone else’s indirect feelings toward your lifestyle. You don’t know them. They don’t know you.

    As much homophobia that may have been around while I was at Morehouse, one thing I will say is no one ever made me feel uncomfortable. Even members of the football team that I’m still friend with to this day. So to write an entire article bashing the football team and taking the focus off the message of the movie really bothered me.

  31. 41

    I do believe that our point of focus has shifted. When do we address the fact that we are STILL dehumanizing our own people? How are we comfortable fighting for civil rights if we disregard human rights? Though your belief system may differ from those whose lifestyles you may not participate in, does that authorize you to revoke their RIGHT to freely exist and moreover, what makes”your” life the”standard way of living”? It is disheartening that my “brothers” are this ignorant, insensitive, and immature to the LGBT community, however, if they don’t know WHY this is an issue then it will continue to be one.

  32. 42

    What the woman is saying is that the young black men who attend a prestigious HBCU actually CHEERED for the racist white man simply because he was attacking a gay man. Come on now, yes they need some kind of LGBT sensitivity seminar or something because that’s beyond immature – it’s ridiculous & disgusting. Like the other Morehouse student said – CUT THE SHIT!

  33. 43

    the article bashing my alma mater

    Because telling the truth about what happened at a public event is bashing the alma mater.

    So to write an entire article bashing the football team and taking the focus off the message of the movie really bothered me.

    I am absolutely certain the events proved the point of the movie just fine.

  34. 44

    “Not everyone is going to agree with homosexuality. Get over it. That affects your life personally in no way.”

    Oh. Good to know that problem is solved. No one is trying to stop us from getting married, visiting our spouses in the hospital, having children. They definitely aren’t attacking us in the street or refusing us service in businesses. And we certainly don’t have any reason to feel nervous when we’re in a crowded theater with dozens of people cheering on an anti-gay hate crime on the screen.

  35. 45

    Why was Miller expecting young black men to be less homophobic than any other young men? On what planet has she been residing where a large group of young, athletic, macho (as an expected presentation at least), men together were anything less than uncomfortable with open expressions of gender expression variation or open displays of sexual behaviour between men, including, by the way, gay men? Yes, vigilant and vigourous activism against homophobia and racism needs to forge on but the finger wagging “surprise” is nonsense.

    Second, I think Miller’s comments about how black kids should represent blackness with respect to a black institution are completely out of line! NOT YOUR CALL Miller! As an activist you should know that.

  36. 46

    AGAIN, she said that she was shocked by their behavior because the young black men attending such a historical institution that has been on the forefront of civil rights movement for decades, were CHEERING FOR A RACIST WHITE MAN because he was attacking a young gay man. What don’t you people understand about that? It has nothing to do with her being white and I’m a proud African American woman who also attended an HBCU. Right is right and wrong is wrong.

  37. 47

    Second, I think Miller’s comments about how black kids should represent blackness with respect to a black institution are completely out of line!

    Ashley said absolutely nothing about how black kids should represent blackness with respect to a black institution. That’s what you read into the blog post. It’s not actually there.

    Honestly, as a gay alumnus of Morehouse College I take far more issue with the article bashing my alma mater than I do with the actions of the few (not 100…we don’t even have 100 member on the team) members of the football team.

    The article did not bash your alma mater. That’s what you read into it. It’s not actually there.

    While yes their actions may have been immature, but I don’t recall the last time I read an article about the immature actions of white college students in any theater. They’re young. This happens in movies period.

    No, it doesn’t. Movies, period, are not full of young men shouting homophobic slurs at each other and the screen. That is not normal. It is not okay.

    Not everyone is going to agree with homosexuality. Get over it. That affects your life personally in now way.

    It affects our lives personally in all sorts of ways. Such as, for example, when people shout homophobic slurs during movies.

    You can’t call for or expect others to “grow up” when you’re being overly sensitive and in your feelings about someone else’s indirect feelings toward your lifestyle. You don’t know them. They don’t know you.

    Ashley’s blog post didn’t assume anything at all about the Morehouse football team. It described their behavior, and how frightening it was. You don’t need to know someone to know that their behavior is frightening.

  38. 48

    Could the people defending this try to imagine that reaction coming from white people seeing and interracial kiss between a man and a woman? Can you not see that the same revulsion for black bodies and black people’s sexuality that is common among racist white people is the same revulsion that was proudly on display in this situation? Would you blame football then? Would you hand wave it away as the pendulum swinging the other way, as if that were no big deal?

    This is a big deal. It matters.

    …and telling people to stop talking about a problem is an attempt to stop action being taken to solve it, not real encouragement toward action. How are people supposed to work toward a solution to a problem that they are not allowed to say exists?

  39. 49

    It’s pretty sad that there is still the motto of “kill the messenger” being in practice with respect to calling out bad behavior.

    If you feel ashamed for the representation of your school at this event, first of all, congratulations, you’re a decent human being. Second of all, direct that energy toward making those people who caused you the shame realize what their mistake was and cause them to feel remorseful for their behavior.

    Also, with regard to this quote from Mane:

    I think Miller’s comments about how black kids should represent blackness with respect to a black institution are completely out of line!

    Is this an expression indicating that homophobia is a part of blackness and is thus unassailable by the gay community? Fuck that noise.

  40. 50

    I take far more issue with the article bashing my alma mater

    I don’t see anywhere that Ashley is bashing Morehouse. She’s describing the actions of some people (described as attending Morehouse) but she’s not saying that their behavior was inappropriate because they attend Morehouse, or that Morehouse had anything to do with it. That’s not bashing. If there’s any bashing going on it’s that, specifically, some students were being criticized for their behavior – but that’s hardly bashing, unless she’s exaggerating or lying about it. “Bashing” would be leaping to conclusions about football players in general or students from an institution in particular, etc. That would be unfair. You know, like leaping to conclusions about people because of their skin color or sexual orientation.

    It’s certainly embarrassing. But don’t mistake someone’s pointing out embarrassing behavior on the part of individuals as bashing their institution.

  41. 51

    Shelese, Miller was not shocked. She was pretending to be shocked and she is lecturing. If she was in a theatre with a white football team, she would not have pretended to be shocked by the homophobia. I went to a college campus today. I heard several homophobic and sexist comments. A woman was walking with one of the guys who was making sexist comments. I did not stop her and say, “Omigawd, I am so shocked you are walking with some guys who make sexist comments.” because 1. to say I was shocked would have been disingenuous and 2. I didn’t feel the need to lecture her about the discrepancy. I did say to one of the guys who wasn’t shutting up that he should tone down the insulting words because they hurt people. It was a small action but it was something.

  42. 52

    Although this article was very heartbreaking, it was balanced by the comments of Mr. Ware and others who understand and address the issue. Homophobia is rife in all cultures. Morehouse is no exception. And, like all other cultures, Morehouse also includes people who see the problem and want to make things better. Kudos to them. These comments indicate that they are taking an unpopular stance. I admire their courage.

  43. 53

    She was pretending to be shocked and she is lecturing. If she was in a theatre with a white football team, she would not have pretended to be shocked by the homophobia.

    Dude, Ashley’s directly targeted by homophobia; don’t look at this just through the lens of race.

  44. 54

    Miller can call out bad behaviour all she wants. I totally support that. Homophobic and racist comments and behaviour needs to be challenged whenever safely possible. However, I repeat, she has crossed a line when she expects some sort of extra contrition or level of analysis from black people because they were 1. black kids and 2. from a black school. Again, not her call. Homophobic comments, bad. I agree. Bring it on. But, I repeat, being surprised because they had a different response to racist behaviour than what she thinks black kids (not white kids) should have had in what we all know is a much more complex and nuanced situation, is not her call.

  45. 55

    Mane:
    Miller can call out bad behaviour all she wants.

    Yet @#50 you accused her of “lecturing” – will you make up your mind about whether or not you’re going to permit her to call out bad behavior, or not?

  46. 56

    // she has crossed a line when she expects some sort of extra contrition or level of analysis from black people because they were 1. black kids and 2. from a black school.//

    There is nothing in the blog post that indicates an expectation of such an “extra” level of “contrition” or “analysis” from “black people.” I’d posit you’re reading that into the post. If you disagree I invite you to explain what text from the blog post you think indicates this expectation, and we can discuss it.

  47. 58

    Mane @53, you may have missed Ashley’s comment @37 where she said:

    I understand that you’re not a follower of my blog, but I have written more about white people’s homophobia, sexism, and racism than about any other group. It’s what I’m most frequently exposed to, it’s what has been most deeply hurtful in my own life. I don’t think it’s Morehouse’s problem, I don’t think it’s football’s problem. I think it’s everybody’s problem. And I think it’s just one problem among many.

    See there? No lecturing. No line crossing. Fits entirely within the criteria you are demanding of her. And yet, you still have a problem?

    Please, as Kris asks @55, be specific about the text that you are taking issue with.

  48. 60

    Really, it’s unreasonable to expect young black men to, you know, maybe hesitate a little before cheering a racist white character in beating up a young black man on screen?

    I believe that is where the shock part came in: the part where it became clear that these young men were so completely invested in the desirability of hurting gay people that it eclipsed their distaste at the idea of a racist white man beating up a black man.

  49. 62

    Hey Ashley,
    I’m surprised you did not know this was going on. You attended Emory right? You care about LGBTQ issues right? And you did not know that Morehouse has one of the socially conservative policies that suppresses the lifestyles of LGBTQ students are the college. I don’t believe it! I think you only know the Morehouse is an all male college and the school where Martin Luther King went to undergrad – no more, no less. However, outside of those two facts, you did not know that it is a beautiful nightmare for students within the LGBTQ community. Beautiful because it provides an amazing education, a nightmare because if you’re LGBTQ in this community you might need to be careful. However, you did not know this obviously. Let us agree to say that it did not matter to you then because you were not impacted. It’s a totally valid.

    As the onset, I was distracted by your title. It’s distracting from the very essence of your message regarding the social acceptance of homophobia and ideals of masculinity. However, you are wrong about one thing – the Morehouse Football Team did not “ruin” Dear White People, nor did they “[prove] its point.”
    This film, which is not being shown in many southern states, e.g. Mississippi, parts of Texas, and Louisiana, in essence attempts to draw upon situations of prejudice, racism, bias, and all phobias. It does a great job. However, it features an aspect of society that people are not prepared to accept – same sex intercourse on the big screen. Nobody expected it. However, being that the director is openly gay, it should have been. These young men, responded inappropriately, but as expected. If you were in a room full of students from Brigham Young, the discourse would have been worse. I doubt you would have to worry about that group going to see this film, but as you said being the lone white person the theater is sad. Then you quickly moved in for the assault, but you failed to realize a few things. These young men are free to respond in this manner. They are in fact encouraged to push against the acceptance of this type of screenplay. However, since they are black and attended school with Dr. King, you expect more from them. I’m sorry that the black men of Morehouse did not live up to your standard. I apologize that they do not all have a homogenize opinion, nor desire to sit through a film. I apologize that your film experience was “ruined” but you still sat through the ENTIRE film and wrote about it. Be real, you thought this was major hypocrisy. If this was the Emory Football Team would you have written this article? Would you have been shocked that the same institution that lacks diversity in every corner of the campus? Are you going to write about the film and how Emory could very well be the university in Dear White People? I’m interested in those thoughts.

    What you witnessed was a microcosm of societal thoughts regarding homosexuality. The underline attack, that obviously does not represent the entire football team as Raynard expressed, has now labeled an entire football team homophobic and further stigmatized Morehouse. You did a great job though. You started a conversation on Morehouse campus, but you went about it the wrong way. You unconsciously labeled, and journalistically slandered a college. I was hoping you would mention that cultural sensitivity regarding the black experience at predominantly white colleges should also be offered to white people.

    The individual commenting are not justifying the homophobic actions of the football team. They are defending the Morehouse name and reputation that a white, privilege, Emory graduate is once more threatening. By the way, you are right. The message of acceptance obviously did not reach the room. You were too distracted by the fact that Black People were misbehaving that you failed to see the acceptance of white, racist, individuals blatantly doing the same without ridicule.

    I hope you are enjoying the attention you have strategically drawn to your page.

  50. 63

    Journalism101 @60: If you hadn’t responded to a funhouse mirror version of Ashely’s blogpost, you might have had something to add to this conversation. You appear knowledgeable and passionate. Sadly, though, you just come off as condescending and holier-than-thou.

    You still have a chance to add something, though. Read what Ashley wrote @37. After reading that, do you have any reasoned and measured thoughts you would like to share? (Hint: Dump the Morehouse-vs.-Emory paranoia. And the condescension.)

    Incidentally, slander doesn’t mean what you think it means, which is pretty funny in light of your screen name.

  51. 64

    journalism101 @60:

    Then you quickly moved in for the assault, but you failed to realize a few things.

    How presumptuous of you.

    These young men are free to respond in this manner.

    Nowhere does Ashley suggest otherwise. Not sure why you felt the need to point this out. Perhaps you arrogantly thought you were instructing her on something? Next time you ought to wait until someone clarifies their opinion on a subject before you attempt to correct them in such a manner.

    They are in fact encouraged to push against the acceptance of this type of screenplay.

    Well yes. This is the culture that we live in. Again with the statements of total obviousness. I hope you’ve a point buried in this arrogantly, tedious comment of yours.

    However, since they are black and attended school with Dr. King, you expect more from them.

    Where the heck is this from? Ashley criticized homophobia. I don’t follow her that much, but given what little I’ve read from her in the past, and the fact that she’s a blogger on a progressive site such as FtB, I think it’s safe to say that she’s pro-LGBT and has probably spoken in defense of LGBT people before, regardless of their race. Likewise, I think it’s safe to say she’s criticized people for their homophobia, regardless of their race.
    I don’t know what she expected of the football team, and neither do you, despite your assumptions. Personally, I expect everyone to be decent human beings, and part of that is treating LGBT people with decency and respect. I expect that from everyone. Those who do not treat LGBT people with respect will garner my criticism and my disdain. It doesn’t matter who the person is, nor what college they went to.

    I’m sorry that the black men of Morehouse did not live up to your standard.

    I’m sorry too. That these men didn’t meet basic standards of human decency toward others. That shouldn’t be a high bar to meet.

    I apologize that they do not all have a homogenize opinion, nor desire to sit through a film.

    Where in the world does Ashely state they should all have a homogenized opinion? What she’s saying is that she’s disappointed that the football team was comprised of homophobic bigots. If you’re not disappointed in that, then I’d question how much you support rights for LGBT people.

    I apologize that your film experience was “ruined” but you still sat through the ENTIRE film and wrote about it.

    A: What are you apologizing for? Are you suddenly the embodiment of the football team?
    B: Oh, you have Ashley here. She saw a movie. She blogged about it. Damn. The hell was your point?!

    Be real, you thought this was major hypocrisy.

    Why not stick to the words she wrote instead of insinuating things? What words in the OP lead you to believe that she felt this was “major hypocrisy”?

    If this was the Emory Football Team would you have written this article? Would you have been shocked that the same institution that lacks diversity in every corner of the campus? Are you going to write about the film and how Emory could very well be the university in Dear White People? I’m interested in those thoughts.

    You’re asking her to speculate on something that hasn’t happened? How ridiculous is that?

    You clearly have something against Ashley for criticizing the bigoted attitudes of the Morehouse football players. Why is that?

  52. 65

    Temitayo Agoro @5:

    This blog is an unnecessary attack on one of the greatest institutions in the world.

    I appreciate it when people criticize homophobia no matter where it manifests. People should not get a free pass bc they attend a well known college. The same standards of decent human behavior should be applied to everyone. I hold people to the same standards as I hold myself. I don’t tolerate bigotry and I don’t accept it. I will call it out if I have the opportunity. It should not be swept under the rug, as it seems you’d prefer.

    @10:

    The 50 (not 100) student athletes are being framed in a situation that is very trivial.

    So glad to see that you think bigotry is trivial.

    ****

    Raynard Ware @12:

    We are sincerely apologetic that the loud embarrassing remarks were heard and not the intellectual discussion, which we also engaged in after the movie.

    The problem is not that the remarks were heard. The problem is that they were uttered in the first place. The attitudes Ashley heard indicate that many of the players are homophobic bigots. That’s not cool at all. Those remarks treat people like me as if we’re second class citizens, undeserving of respect. They shouldn’t be tolerated, and they shouldn’t be excused. Yes the team members have the right to say what they want. Other people have the right to call them out for their bigotry as well.

    ****
    Kim Agoro @17:

    Everybody stop talking and get yourselves out in the real world ….do the work!

    Blogging is work.
    The internet is part of real life.
    Engaging people online is getting out in the world and doing work. Ashley brought this to the attention of people, and it is spreading as a result. There are many ways to combat bigotry and YOU do not get to decide for others how they’ll fight it.

    ****

    Anthony Johnson @21:

    Half of these players are probably closeted gay/bisexual or questions anyway. Probably going with the crowd to not appear homosexual.

    Speculating on others’ sexualities is not helpful.
    Moreover, hinting that some of the people engaging in homophobic behavior may in fact be gay or bisexual is to argue that homophobia is the fault of gay people. Please don’t do that.

    ****

    Seconding Josh @22.

  53. 66

    Hey, “journalism101.” Let’s go over a few things. First off, Ashley was not the only white person there. There were at least a solid dozen among the twenty or so people that were in the room. It was only right before the movie began that the Morehouse football team entered the room. It was dark. We had no idea who they were at the time. We thought maybe it was a class trip or something. How the hell were we supposed to guess that fucking Morehouse was in town to play Benedict? We’re fucking nerds. We don’t follow sports. It was just, “oh, wow, there sure are an awful lot of people entering the theater right now. Cool.” See, we were kinda disheartened by the possibility that only about twenty people were going to be seeing this film on opening night (though, granted, it was only one of the three showings).

    Let me list for you the things we *knew* going into this: there were lots of dudes in the theatre with us.
    That is the end of the list. There were a bunch of dudes. It was dark in the theater, and there were a bunch of dudes.

    It was only after we left the theater, after enduring the awful comments and the cheering on of the beating of a gay man and the shitty attitudes that we found out who was making said comments. It was only when we got into the lights and saw “Morehouse Football” emblazoned on the matching track suits that we had any idea. Literally the only thing we knew about them *after the fact*, and before we went on fucking Google, was that it was a historically black HBCU. Bakari Sellers went there. We know him. We like the guy. We see him at Devine Foods pretty often when we go there for lunch. That’s it. That’s all we knew.

    On our way home, the mood was pretty fucking somber. We had just sat through a long movie, throughout which we had to endure numerous violently homophobic comments. We stuck through it because we wanted to see the movie. That’s it. That’s all. But they still ruined the experience *for us.* Hence the title of this article. It was absolutely horrifying, the things they were saying.
    The ride home was rough. I suggested we stop by Publix to grab some Ben & Jerry’s on the way, and that we consume it while watching Buffy the Vampire Slayer on Netflix when we got home, as a way of brightening our evening. As we were pulling out of the parking lot, Ashley began to break down. I pulled the car over and held her as she broke down into gut-wrenching, body-shaking sobs. I did my best to reassure her that things would change, and that what we were seeing was the macho posturing of a football team high on testosterone and eager to look masculine in front of their teammates. Eventually, her tears subsided, and I drove us the rest of the way home.

    By the time we got home, she decided that this was worth writing about. She had witnessed something that had deeply upset her, so she reacted in a way that so many other writers and bloggers react: she went on her personal blog and wrote about it. This is how writers cope. They write.

    I helped her do some editing. We did some research into Morehouse, and found that it was the alma mater of great humans like MLK, Jr., and Spike Lee. We though, “well fuck, how would people like them, who dedicated so much of their lives to fighting hatred, react to ‘Morehouse Men’ cheering on the savage beating of a gay man, whose only crime was being gay?” So there was an angle for the piece. Was it hypocrisy on their part? No. They never professed to be perfect humans fighting for perfect equality. At least, not to our knowledge.

    But here’s the point: neither of us give a shit which sports team it was that walked into our local movie theater last night. It could have been the fucking Smith College, Amherst, Massachusetts Field Hockey team. It wouldn’t have changed our reaction. It wouldn’t have stopped Ashley breaking down and crying in my car on the way home. It would still have been worth writing about, and worth calling out, because bad fucking behavior warrants at least that much.

    Slander? Bull-fucking-shit. A bunch of dudes went out in public and cheered the on-screen beating of a gay man. And Ashley wrote about it, because she is a blogger with a blog and that is how she copes. She wants to make a positive difference in the world in which she lives. She wants to get married someday in a state where everyone can marry anyone he/she/they wants to. And that only happens when people speak out against homophobia such as we witnessed last night.

    There is no fucking strategy behind this blog post. It’s a fucking *blog post*. There is *so* little to gain. If it started a conversation about homophobia on the Morehouse campus, all the better, but this was only ever a coping mechanism in response to the incredibly hurtful behavior of certain members of the Morehouse football team. Pretending otherwise is absolute bullshit. This isn’t a fucking hit piece. No one gives a shit what school these dudes came from or what sport they play. The only thing that matters here is that a bunch of humans came into the same theater we were in and took a steaming, violent shit on people like Ashley whom we love and care about. It’s a tough thing to stomach, knowing that so many are so willing to hate you so openly and with such zeal.

    If you think that this article was in any way strategic, or that Ashley F. Miller just plain doesn’t give a shit about homophobia except when perpetrated by the black community, then you haven’t read her work. If you think this was a hit piece, that she was intentionally going after an HBCU as just another Emory graduate (and it’s worth mentioning that she fucking *loathed* Emory, not that you care) then, quite frankly, you’re just flat-out fucking wrong. The only thing that happened last night is that we went to see a movie, and had an experience that pissed us off, and she wrote about it, because, again, that is what writers *do.*

    If you seriously have a problem with that, if you seriously can’t stand that someone dared to criticize a sportsball team for some shit that they *actually fucking said*, then I don’t know what to tell you. I’m sorry that you are so upset that Ashley was so upset that she felt the need to write and speak up about it. Sucks that you suck, I guess.

  54. 67

    Ashley McGarthy @25:

    As a black woman, from my perspective, this entire situation is a huge misunderstanding. There are multiple ways to look at this particular case and story.

    If the situation were about white people being racist, or men being sexist, would you also say this is a huge misunderstanding? Would you also say “there are multiple ways to look at this particular case and story”? You’re making excuses for homophobia and criticizing someone who calls it out as the horrible behavior it is. Have you no decency? Where is your respect for LGBT people?

    And this…

    Overall, no one should be negatively commenting because that only allows and falsely justifies us to judge other groups that we have no individual information or personal experiences from.

    is just sheer, unadulterated stupidity.
    We don’t need individual information to criticize bigotry. You just need empathy, a shred of human decency, and a desire to help make things better, rather than remaining silent and endorsing the status quo.
    If people took your advice, there would be a whole lot less criticism in the world, bc people would only be able to comment positively on groups that we have no individual information on or know personally.
    It is not necessary to know someone or have information on them to judge their actions or their words.
    I also get a whiff of “don’t judge others” from your comment, and that crap needs to stop too. We humans? We judge.
    We judge many things.
    We judge the quality of a movie that we see.
    We judge the quality of a restaurant that we eat at.
    We judge the quality of the date we went on.
    We judge the quality of someone’s character.
    We judge ourselves.
    Judging anything or anyone is not wrong. It’s a part of life. It’s how we determine the activities we want to undertake. It’s how we decide which people we want to spend time around and which ones we don’t. It’s how we decide if the people around us are decent, respectful people, or if their homophobic bigots.

    Judging. We do it. It should be done. People need to stop pulling out the religious BS that is “don’t judge others”.

  55. 68

    Aaron Dowell @34:

    Let’s help these students grow. They are young. I was not the same person I was at 22 and a Morehouse Man, as I was at 18 and a Man of Morehouse, and I attribute that to my experience at Morehouse and Spelman.

    I think Ashley’s criticism of the players is something that could help them grow. If they accept the criticism and realize the harm in their statements.

    ****
    Day Williams @35:
    What blog post did you read? Because this one, by Ashley Miller? There was no suggestion, neither overt nor subtle, that all black people are homophobic. Ashley criticized the homophobic members of the Morehouse football team for their bigotry (and pointed out the irony of black people applauding the beating of a black person by a white person). Perhaps you are thinking of another blog.

    ****
    “Morehouse Senior” @38:

    Now, I am currently a student at Morehouse College and I can personally say that I am not shocked at the behavior of certain, if not most, of the members of our football team. They routinely conduct themselves in such a way around and off campus that is honestly embarrassing to the rest of the student population (along with a majority of the basketball team) but to generalize the campus as homophobic or hateful to the LGBTQ community is unfair.

    Homophobia pervades society. It seeps into all the crevices, no matter how small. That includes college institutions like Morehouse. It would be surprising (and unrealistic) to think there wouldn’t be a climate of homophobia on that campus. There is everywhere else. Did you think Morehouse is somehow special in that regard?

    ****
    James Devlin-Braswell @39:

    Honestly, as a gay alumnus of Morehouse College I take far more issue with the article bashing my alma mater than I do with the actions of the few (not 100…we don’t even have 100 member on the team) members of the football team.

    Oh dear, loyalty to the college in the face of bigotry. Not a good thing. Nothing to be proud of.

    While yes their actions may have been immature, but I don’t recall the last time I read an article about the immature actions of white college students in any theater.

    Ashley has criticized white homophobes plenty of times. Quit insinuating that she’s got some extra special dislike for black men who are homophobic.
    Also, homophobia is not immaturity. It’s bigotry. Do you also consider racism or sexism to be immaturity?

    They’re young. This happens in movies period. Not everyone is going to agree with homosexuality.

    No one is asking people to agree with homosexuality, but we are DEMANDING to be treated as people with the same rights as everyone else. We are also DEMANDING to be treated with the same decency and respect accorded others, and NO, we will not sit down and shut up. Would you have told black people the same thing back in the 50s?

    Get over it. That affects your life personally in now way.

    Saying that “the homophobia of others doesn’t affect you personally so get over it” is no different than saying “the racism of others doesn’t affect you personally, so get over it”. This shit is a cultural problem. It extends far beyond Morehouse. It has permeated society. Homophobic attitudes (often the result of religious beliefs) result in very real oppression and discrimination felt by LGBT people. This can be seen if you open your eyes and look around. One need not be directly affected by discrimination to speak out against it. Moreover, one shouldn’t need to be directly affected by discrimination to speak up. That’s the moral thing to do. If you see someone being mistreated…if you hear of throwback attitudes that contribute to a climate of oppression for a marginalized group…speak up. Refusing to do so is giving tacit approval for those attitudes to continue. It’s saying “I’m fine with the status quo”. It’s saying “I’ve got mine. Screw you.” That’s not the position a decent human being should ever take.

    You can’t call for or expect others to “grow up” when you’re being overly sensitive and in your feelings about someone else’s indirect feelings toward your lifestyle.

    Don’t you dare tell others they’re being overly sensitive. You have no idea what people have gone through. You’ve no idea how people have suffered for being LGBT. You have NO idea.
    Also, being LGBT is not a lifestyle.
    It’s part of who we are.
    Being gay is every bit a part of me as being black. Or being a man. Don’t insult me and others by hinting that it’s a “lifestyle”.

    You don’t know them. They don’t know you.

    So now you need to know someone in order to call out their bigotry? I guess I can’t criticize Pat Robertson or Sarah Palin any longer. That’s just asinine and it’s meant to provide a cover for bigots.

    So to write an entire article bashing the football team and taking the focus off the message of the movie really bothered me.

    Get over it. I’d much rather someone call out bad behavior than act as you have and treat it like it’s immaturity at best or not even worth criticizing. That you personally haven’t experienced homophobia doesn’t mean that others haven’t. Homophobic attitudes have led to discrimination, oppression, brutal beatings, and death for many people. These attitudes need to be confronted and criticized wherever they exist. Otherwise, people won’t become better. It’s the same problem with racism and sexism in this country. Ignoring the problem is not going to make things get better.

    (Ashley, sorry to post these long screeds)

  56. 69

    Mane @50:
    Perhaps you have reading comprehension issues. Let me assist you in as patronizing a manner as possible:
    Black football players from Historically Black College Morehouse cheered on the beating (in a movie) of another black person by a racist white man, simply bc the latter was gay. I’m shocked by this myself, and I’m a man of color. I would never have thought that a group of black men would *ever* condone the beating of another black person by a racist white person. Yet it happened. All because to those players it’s A-OK to be a black person if they’re gay.
    If you’re not shocked by that, you need to recalibrate your morality meter.

  57. 70

    […] Ashley Miller wrote about her negative experience watching the movie Dear White Men. Though she liked the movie, she was disturbed by the attitudes of several people in the audience. These people turned out to be football players from Morehouse (a historically black college).  They openly displayed their homophobia during the movie, which made her uncomfortable. They even cheered on as a racist white man in the movie beat a gay black man.  Ashley even points out how fucked up it is that a group of black men from Morehouse cheered on a racist white man beating a black man. To them, it was acceptable because the black guy was gay. What message does that send to others? That these players condone violence against gay people simply for existing.  Read her post here. […]

  58. 72

    Just came in to say thank you to Ashley for the post, and the commentators – especially Tony! The Queer Shoop – for so many clear explanations of the problems of homophobia, racism, (and to a lesser extent) sexism. And then I see this:

    Brotherhood not sisterhood @68

    Morehouse really needs to cut down on the gay population. It’s become annoying and defeats the purpose having a brotherhood when you have students creating a sisterhood.

    This pisses me off. There is nothing wrong with being an effeminate male. The idea that all gay men are effeminate is bullshit. Gender doesn’t just come in male and female. Academic institutions should be places of learning for all people, and solidarity should be with all people.

  59. 73

    Tony, get over yourself. Why don’t you answer the main question regarding the privileged way Miller has positioned herself here? Would Miller have been “shocked” if she had been in a theatre with homophobic white football players? Would she have pulled out platitudes about MLK and buttons and mottos to live up to? Well let’s save time. The answer is NO. Why not? Let’s simplify. White supremacy. I just wish, as an activist, Ashley would stop accepting servile apologies from black people supposedly speaking for the race, or speaking for the whole school, etc.

    “I would never have thought that a group of black men would *ever* condone the beating of another black person by a racist white person.” You too? You just get the vapours when you hear that a group of young athletes might express homophobic thoughts, oh no wait, excuse me, it’s just the black athletes, right?? Well, well, I do declaya, I just have the vapours.

    Ashley I know you are a dedicated, hard working activist. I know you care about people and the issues involved. And I know you experience oppression and harassment big time. You are totally correct to call out the homophobia you witnessed. But those areas of oppression about which you have not the smallest chance of understanding on an experience or status level, approach with curiosity, wonder about, perhaps request dialogue, but do not symbolically wag your finger or pat people on the head and tell them how they should respond to the symbols of their own oppression.

  60. 75

    Mane @70

    “I would never have thought that a group of black men would *ever* condone the beating of another black person by a racist white person.” You too? You just get the vapours when you hear that a group of young athletes might express homophobic thoughts, oh no wait, excuse me, it’s just the black athletes, right?? Well, well, I do declaya, I just have the vapours.

    Why are you trying to downplay the absolutely essential aspects of their behavior? They chose to cheer a racist nearly beating to death a black boy because he was black for the simple reason that he was also gay. The issue at hand isn’t that it could have happened on any other football team. The issue is quite simply that it did happen this way, and calling it out in less fierce terms because it would be common is the height of protecting the status quo.

  61. 76

    @25 Ashley McGarthy:

    “First, the original blog post sounds very biased, for the author to not have experienced Spelman or Morehouse first hand. Like she said she went to Emory.”

    I do not see how the particular school is relevant, except to identify the association deserving of shameful rebuke. Unless… Is it your contention that the author’s report is biased by some sort of rivalry? Is that it?

    Seems far-fetched.

    But the thing about empathy is this: you’re supposed to put yourself in someone else’s shoes. Instead, you’re essentially saying that because someone else’s shoes are a different style than yours, you shouldn’t be able to recount an incident of homophobia. I believe the author’s post had sufficient context.

  62. 77

    Mane @70:

    Tony, get over yourself.

    Done.

    Why don’t you answer the main question regarding the privileged way Miller has positioned herself here?

    I disagree with you that this is a question worth asking, let alone answering.

    Would Miller have been “shocked” if she had been in a theatre with homophobic white football players?

    You continue to ignore the fact that black people were cheering on a white racist beating a black man. The power and racial dynamic would change if it were white football players cheering on a white racist beating a black man.
    How can you not understand that it is shocking to see black people cheering on a racist white man beating a black man? That is shocking. It might still be shocking if white people did it, but nowhere near the same degree. You’re ignoring the fact that white people used their power to brutalize black people for centuries (even through today), and that shouldn’t be something black people ever celebrate. Or so one would think. Clearly, when it’s a GAY black person, some of the Morehouse football team think white on black violence is a good thing.

    Keep on missing the point.

  63. 78

    Brotherhood not sisterhood @68:

    Morehouse really needs to cut down on the gay population. It’s become annoying and defeats the purpose having a brotherhood when you have students creating a sisterhood.

    Homophobic much? First off, cutting down on the gay population would necessarily entail targeting gay people with discrimination. You would argue for that?
    Secondly, not all gay men are effeminate, and of those that are, there isn’t a damn thing wrong with being effeminate. There’s nothing wrong with being a woman, having qualities in common with women, or carrying yourself in a feminine way.
    So take your homophobic sexism and shove it.

    (Oh, and thirdly? Your homophobic comments ignore the existence of gay and bisexual lesbians. I’m sure Morehouse has some on their campus.)

  64. 79

    Mane, correct me if I am wrong, but what you’re saying is that it is racist of me to have expected a group of black men not to cheer for the racially and sexuality motivated beating of a black man, because that behavior should be expected from any group of men or athletes watching?

    I can assure you that I would have written about what happened, no matter who it had been, from a “missing the point” perspective, but you’re certainly right that I found it more surprising than I would have if it was a group of frat boys from Emory. I would have been appalled and shocked and recommended lgbt sensitivity training to whatever team or organization’s uniform they were wearing on their official group outing, but that it was Morehouse was an additional surprise.

    I don’t pretend to know the nuances of “black homophobia” as a distinct phenomenon from homophobia in general, and I don’t think I am the person to speak to the issue even if I did, which is why I don’t do it.

    If you think I was wrong to call out this group by describing who they were, what their behavior was, and how it made me felt, that’s fair, but what then was the appropriate way to respond?

  65. 80

    Mane @70:
    I missed this.

    “I would never have thought that a group of black men would *ever* condone the beating of another black person by a racist white person.” You too? You just get the vapours when you hear that a group of young athletes might express homophobic thoughts, oh no wait, excuse me, it’s just the black athletes, right?? Well, well, I do declaya, I just have the vapours.

    It’s not a case of the vapours. You’re also mixing up my criticism. Yes, I think the football players were being homophobic bigots. That problematic behavior is in addition to the fact that they were applauding racism.

    Given the ties between Morehouse and the Civil Rights Movement-a movement which sought (among many other things) to combat the racism that led to white people brutalizing black people-it’s almost a slap in the face that a group of Morehouse students would applaud the beating of a black man at the hands of a white man.
    Can you really not see how surprising it is that these black football players would support racism? Yes, I’d be pissed off if any group of people made disparaging remarks about LGBT people, no matter their race. This situation is made worse given that the football players were from Morehouse. I don’t expect black people from a college such as Morehouse (remember its ties to the Civil Rights Movement) to applaud a white racist for beating a black man. It’s shocking how they ignore the racism bc of their homophobia.

  66. 81

    Well, let me just throw my cards down on the table so the drive by whiners can’t immediately dismiss my concerns:

    I’m black
    I’m queer
    I’ve lived in Atlanta
    I’m a writer
    I’m a clinic escort (so that should cover my “get off the computer and DO something” cred, right?)

    If y’all can get over yourselves long enough to see the problem of a bunch of black students cheering the beating of a black gay man by a white racist, that’s your problem. Don’t come up here and try to make your willful blindness Ashley’s or anyone else’s problems.

    That behavior was terrible and the excuses are cowardly. What do I expect from a bunch of young men, in 2014, who have been raised with some awareness that queer people at least exist? Better. I expect better and I get to condemn that behavior. This isn’t on them being football players (some who are gay or at least don’t catch the vapors in the presence of gay people), or black (black queer folks exist and deserve equal rights whether you like it or not), or attending a conservative college. This is on their shameful behavior and the message it may have conveyed to anyone in that audience who was also black and/or gay and/or an ally.

    Some of y’all seriously need to go look at a mirror for a minute and think about this. A white woman seems to have more empathy for a black gay character than any of you do and you are literally condemning her observation because of her race and nothing more, giving more of a crap about a bunch of young men who are obviously not prepared for world out there where people tend to get upset when you behave in a way that is bigoted, nevermind outright ignoring the messed up history we have in our own backyards with homophobia.

    Don’t get mad at her because she’s airing out a piece of our dirty laundry.

  67. 82

    @Ashely F Miller

    If you think I was wrong to call out this group by describing who they were, what their behavior was, and how it made me felt, that’s fair, but what then was the appropriate way to respond?

    Given that some of these drive-bys are accusing you of doing this for clicks (WTF?), I’m assuming they wanted you to remain silent in the face of such bigotry.

  68. 83

    This blog is asinine at best. Everyone knows that Morehouse Men are of the most brilliant black men in the world. Yet, they are young people who hold strong to traditional understandings of sexuality. Ya’ll have to stop demonizing people because they disagree w/ homosexuality. You do the exact demonizing that you claim happens to gays. Those Morehouse guys don’t care about gays. They see it everyday on campus. They just hated to be subjected to having it shoved down their throats. That’s the gay agenda. Shove gayness down everyone’s throat and they’ll have to accept it!! BS!!

  69. 85

    Ya’ll have to stop demonizing people because they disagree w/ homosexuality. You do the exact demonizing that you claim happens to gays

    Oh dear, I wasn’t aware we were denying homphobes the right to marry, and housing, allowing them to be fired if they come out as hateful homophobes, or jeering everything we see straight people kissing in the media.

    Nobody gives a crap if people “disagree” with homosexuality. We exist, we’re not going anywhere and want to see more of ourselves in media. If you don’t like it, avert your eyes and act like a grown up, not a kid being offered green veggies.

  70. 86

    They just hated to be subjected to having it shoved down their throats. That’s the gay agenda. Shove gayness down everyone’s throat and they’ll have to accept it!! BS!!

    I’m tired of you fucking hets shoving heterosexuality down my throat.

  71. CJ
    87

    Many of those football players are probably on the low anyway… Sometimes the ones who seem most homophobic are that way, because they like men, and try so hard to save face in front of straight males so that no one suspects they are gay/bi themselves, because of the way they would be looked at …. If a man is really secure with himself, I don’t think he would care much.

  72. 88

    Morehouse Men are of the most brilliant black men in the world.

    Events suggest otherwise.
    .

    Yet, they are young people who hold strong to traditional understandings of sexuality.

    Their own sexuality is their business – but they don’t get to make a loud and obnoxious, intrusive, aggressive and incredibly rude public display of their bigotry without getting called out for it.
    .

    Ya’ll have to stop demonizing people because they disagree w/ homosexuality.

    Nope, they can “disagree” with it all they like (though I do wonder how one can “disagree” with existence. Do they “disagree” with shortness? Tallness? Do they “disagree” with the existence of people with green eyes, or people who are left-handed? Incidentally, if they don’t care for same-sex attraction, you know what? They’re free to be attracted to the opposite sex! Yay!) They are, however, getting criticised for their disgusting behaviour. “Demonising” is what they and their ilk do to GBLT people.

  73. 89

    I watched Dear White People on its premiere night in Manhattan in a theater packed full of whom I thought were mostly black, liberal intellectuals. Even still, when it came to the same-sex kiss between Lionel and George, I heard some noises of shock and disgust in the theater. Why is it that some members of the black community can’t recognize the irony and shame in discriminating against non-heterosexuals when we ourselves are also discriminated against? I think that as blacks we especially should have empathy for the plight of the LGBTQ community.
    On a side note, as a black woman, I’m thankful to you, Ashley, for writing this article. Simply by furthering this conversation about LGBTQ rights, you are making a difference. No matter what your race, or social status or educational affiliation, the message you’re speaking is valuable, at least to me.

  74. Jay
    90

    For the guys who agree with this, how would you have felt if you a black guy in a theater and a group of redneck white college football players came in and the scene featured a straight black male being beaten and they said that’s right beat that ni$$er, I wish he would have killed him or something to that extent… Would you have been upset? Can you demonize them for disliking blacks, but yet condone them disliking gays? People don’t wake up and choose to be gay today, no more than they choose their skin color… Do you think people actually wish to be gay and deal with what they have to deal with?

  75. 92

    @ 39 James

    They’re YOUNG? Are you kidding? These are college students. Adults. In every sense of the word.

    Seriously, they’re not that young. When the hell are they supposed to “grow up”? Their 30s?

  76. 95

    Jcity @80:

    This blog is asinine at best. Everyone knows that Morehouse Men are of the most brilliant black men in the world. Yet, they are young people who hold strong to traditional understandings of sexuality. Ya’ll have to stop demonizing people because they disagree w/ homosexuality. You do the exact demonizing that you claim happens to gays. Those Morehouse guys don’t care about gays. They see it everyday on campus. They just hated to be subjected to having it shoved down their throats. That’s the gay agenda. Shove gayness down everyone’s throat and they’ll have to accept it!! BS!!

    Ah, the old “not tolerating my intolerance and bigotry is intolerance”, which is asinine at best, bc all the bigots are receiving is criticism, while those who are oppressed and discriminated against face, well…oppression and discrimination.
    Look, LGBT are actively discriminated against. We suffer in ways big and small thanks to small minded, regressive bigots like the homophobes on the Morehouse football team. Anti-LGBT bigotry is well documented. All we’re doing is standing up and saying “Hey! This isn’t cool!”
    We demand to be treated with the same respect and decency as everyone else.
    We demand the same rights as everyone else.
    No one is saying you have to “accept homosexuality”, but you damn well need to stop shitting all over us with your hatred and bigotry.

    The “gay agenda” you speak of is nothing of the sort. Want to know what the “gay agenda” in the US is?
    A desire to live in a country where LGBT people can live their lives free of discrimination, oppression, and bigotry. Kinda the same things that various Civil Rights leaders over the years have sought for African-Americans. If that’s “shoving an agenda” down your throat, then so be it.

    ****

    CJ @84:

    Many of those football players are probably on the low anyway… Sometimes the ones who seem most homophobic are that way, because they like men, and try so hard to save face in front of straight males so that no one suspects they are gay/bi themselves, because of the way they would be looked at …. If a man is really secure with himself, I don’t think he would care much.

    Yet another person pulls out the “homophobia is the fault of gay people”. Look, you don’t know anything about the sexuality of the various players on the team. Repressing one’s homosexuality does not always result in becoming homophobic and I’m damned tired of people taking a few notable public figures who have done so and use them to justify their ridiculous assertions. Claiming that homophobic bigotry is being spouted by in-the-closet gay people shift the responsibility for ending homophobia from the homophobes (the overwhelming number of whom are heterosexual) onto gay people. That’s like telling black people that the responsibility for ending racism is on them, rather than on white America, who built and benefit from a culture of white supremacy.
    Also, a lot of men secure in their sexuality are homophobes. One of the problems that bigoted religious people have is that they view morality as “rules handed down by god”, rather than codes of conduct designed by humans to allow us to live in relative harmony with one another. These codes of conduct are derived by determining which actions are the greatest good (or right) and which actions bring the greatest harm (or bad). You determine morality, your sense of right and wrong, based on human interactions, not “orders” from an invisible, inaudible, undetectable, intangible, unknowable being, energy, force, or deity.

    ****

    Akilah @86:

    I think that as blacks we especially should have empathy for the plight of the LGBTQ community.

    I agree.
    Would that our brains were more rational.

    ****
    opposablethumbs @85:

    Nope, they can “disagree” with it all they like (though I do wonder how one can “disagree” with existence. Do they “disagree” with shortness? Tallness? Do they “disagree” with the existence of people with green eyes, or people who are left-handed? Incidentally, if they don’t care for same-sex attraction, you know what? They’re free to be attracted to the opposite sex! Yay!)

    I’m going to have to remember this argument, bc I really like it. The people arguing against homosexuality don’t view it as “normal” or “natural”, despite the fact that it is both. Homosexuality is every bit as normal and natural as being right handed, or being tall, or being thin, or being overweight, or having blue eyes, or having red hair. None of those qualities should be used to discriminate against people.

    ****

    snowylocks @88:

    If having something portrayed positively in a movie equals “having it shoved down your throat”, then you must have choked on every single movie your ever saw.

    Good point.
    I wonder what people like jcity think of movies that shoved anti-racist beliefs down their throat.

  77. 96

    Everyone knows that Morehouse Men are of the most brilliant black men in the world.

    Then they should be able to conduct themselves better, shouldn’t they? What you are saying is the best and brightest are still bigoted assholes. That’s confirms that this is problem needs to be addressed. It is not an excuse to ignore the problem.

  78. 97

    Ya’ll have to stop demonizing people because they disagree w/ homosexuality.

    Shall I stop demonizing people who disagree with racial equality while I’m at it? Because racists tell me I am being intolerant of them too. In fact, they use some of the same excuses and rationalizations you do for why their belief in the inferiority of black people should be respected as a valid and a legitimate part of their culture.

  79. 99

    Akilah (#86)

    Even still, when it came to the same-sex kiss between Lionel and George, I heard some noises of shock and disgust in the theater.

    Not to detract from your point, but I was disgusted by that kiss, not because it was between two men, but because George was such a smarmy, manipulative, fetishizing sack of crap who had set Lionel up to take advantage of him. And Lionel didn’t seem to know quite how to refuse, even though he was clearly uncomfortable. I wanted to introduce the poor guy to some older black gay men so they could teach him self care and how to deal safely with white gays.

  80. 100

    […] As an Atlanta native, southern African American woman, Georgia State University senior, and a fiance to a Morehouse football player, I am here to state some “real” FACTS about Black people (since this matter seems to fall more so on the “race” side than on the theme delivered in “Dear White People”) and gay culture in response to Ashley F. Miller’s blog “How the Morehouse Football Team ruined Dear White People and proved its point“. […]

  81. 101

    First of all, I cannot stand people talking in a movie theatre. There is nothing more irritating than attending a movie and having someone blabbering during the show (wink-wink, tongue in cheek). Shame on you Men of Morehouse. No, comedy aside, our Men of Morehouse should have handled this situation more maturely. Their unfiltered, open rejection of the movie’s content gave this blogger the ammunition she needed to make her point, all straight Black men are aggressive towards the homosexual community. Not true at all. There was absolute harmony between the gay and straight young men on the Morehouse campus when we attended parent and student orientation with our son this summer. In fact, there was a gay young man checking my son and the other football players into their athletic dorms. He did not appear to be afraid for his safety. He seemed to be one of the more comfortable and confident persons in the building that day.

    Obviously, these young men feel bombarded by the on-going pressures of society to force the general public to empathize with the gay life-style. These guys apparently have strong opinions regarding this topic. Look behind their position and explore their interests. They believe in heterosexuality and do not wish to see two guys, or girls, making out on the big screen. It is uncomfortable for them to watch. Watching certain sex scenes with someone other than your mate is already funny feeling enough for some, without the added homosexual dynamic. Again, I believe this is a maturity issue, but I digress.

    I believe that the effeminization of the Black male and masculinization of the Black female weakens the Black community. I do not advocate violence against gays or hatred against homosexuality, nor do I agree with this blogger’s attempt to champion the call for gay sensitivity by attacking the most disenfranchised people, young Black men. I do believe in proper gender identification. I do not focus, as heavily, on the trends of the dominate society, so it is not my goal to rid the entire world of homosexuality. I am concerned about the high rate of homosexuality in the Black community, especially in Atlanta, GA.

    On the Morehouse campus particularly, there is a large population of gay young men, and as one of the other commentators posted, a campus rule was passed to stop these gay men from wearing dresses, purses, make up, and other female attire. You can probably upstand the awkwardness felt by straight young men attending an all male college, where other young men were taking on female identities. That could definitely trigger some strong emotions in young straight guys.

    As the number of gay male attendees increase, I think it is important for gay and straight students to put the legacy of Morehouse College before themselves. Just as Dr. Martin Luther King advocated non-violence, he also was an advocate of Christian principles. Homosexuality is undoubtedly at odds with Christianity, and Morehouse is a Christian college. With that in mind, compassion is also a Christian principle. M.O.M. should embody compassion and patience. I am afraid that more and more of our brothers and sisters are becoming confused about their sexuality and feeling more or less ignored and disenfranchised. The result of this confusion and isolation is the emergence of a parallel culture of not just homosexuality, but thuggery as well; and the dominate society is often too happy to embrace Black homosexuality, as the context of this movie suggest. My community is ailing and I am concerned. I love my homosexual family members and all of the young brothers and sisters attending Morehouse and Spelman; and I think it is time for us to get serious with ourselves and look at the root of all of our struggles to get along and be accepted, the historical and still on-going affect of White Supremacy. The problem with what this blogger has to say about her encounter, is that it pertains to a much larger issue which cannot be summed up with a class on LBGT sensitivity training. Think about it before you accuse me of pulling the race card out on Black on Black hate.

    Thank you.

  82. 103

    Their unfiltered, open rejection of the movie’s content

    They. Cheered. For. A. White. Racist. Beating. Up. A. Black. Victim.
    They cheered for bigotry. They cheered for racism. Don’t try to prettify what they did.
    .

    her point, all straight Black men are aggressive towards the homosexual community.

    Rubbish. Miller does not say this, or anything like this, anywhere. Don’t make up bullshit in a transparent attempt to paint her in a bad light.
    .
    As for the rest of your comment … well the existence of a perfectly natural and normal minority phenomenon – human homosexuality – clearly upsets you (you seem to think it “weakens” communities – got any evidence for that, or do you have enough self-knowledge to understand that this is just your own prejudices talking?). You seem to think there’s something wrong per se with being gay (newsflash – there isn’t) and that being gay always takes a certain form (newsflash – it doesn’t. Any of GBLT women and men might present in ways that seem “masculine” or “feminine” to you. It’s nobody’s business but theirs). You’re entitled to dislike a natural phenomenon, I suppose (though it doesn’t make much sense. Do you dislike the fact that some snails have stripey shells while others are plain? The fact that some people have distinct earlobes while others don’t?). Other people are entitled to point out that you’re irrationally prejudiced, to the detriment of your fellow human beings. I’m glad, I’m sure, that you don’t approve of violence yourself – but that’s setting the bar kind of low, pal.

  83. Z
    104

    In case you are wondering if you should give LaSonya Walters’ blog any clicks, here’s two quotes:

    Today, most people in Atlanta, at Morehuse, and in the world are becoming members of gay culture simply because it is a trend and not because they were born that way.

    By the way, I have not seen “Dear White People” and no longer do I have the desire to do so after all this unnecessary madness.

    (The second one was the final sentence of the post.)

  84. 105

    Oh boy, some of these comments are pretty awful.

    On behalf of the ignorant black people that don’t know what they’re talking about, I am sorry, Ashley.

    I just saw the movie last night and I immediately resonated with Lionel’s character. I don’t know why, but I had a feeling that the case of his situation was “unique” to everyone else, and I definitely don’t believe that his situation should be silenced. And I think people who are defending the action of this school team are hypocrites. I’m heterosexual, but I also believe in equal treatment for everyone. But it’s a long way to go for some of these guys, I know that much for certain. People find this as “normal” behavior. But eh…no. It shouldn’t be accepted.

    I’m glad that you took the time to see that movie and understood everything that it was explained in the film. The situation with Lionel is no exception. I know it was probably a challenging role for that guy but I’m super glad that he did it.

    I’m only disappointed that most people who are not POC and offended by the movie is solely on the title and have been pretty active in vehemently objecting the movie on Facebook.

  85. 107

    Their unfiltered, open rejection of the movie’s content gave this blogger the ammunition she needed to make her point, all straight Black men are aggressive towards the homosexual community.

    Liar.

  86. 110

    Mr. C @97:

    Their unfiltered, open rejection of the movie’s content gave this blogger the ammunition she needed to make her point, all straight Black men are aggressive towards the homosexual community.

    Please quote the portion of the OP that makes this claim. The version I read said nothing of the sort. Until you produce evidence you’re LYING.

    I believe that the effeminization of the Black male and masculinization of the Black female weakens the Black community.

    Why? What’s your evidence? Why does it matter?
    What you’re rejecting is the breadth of human experience and expression. It isn’t something that should be restrained. People are not harmed simply by being LGBT. Nor are they harmed by being effeminate or masculine. Everything you’re complaining about amounts to “I like gender roles the way they are and no one should fight to end them”, which is bullshit. Gender roles are harmful to people, as you can see by many people who oppose homosexuality. They think that there’s a “proper way” for men and women to act and gay, lesbians, and bisexuals deviate from that proper behavior. I hate that crap, bc it limits human freedom and expression, as well as contributing to oppression and discrimination of people who don’t conform to society’s expectations.

    On the Morehouse campus particularly, there is a large population of gay young men, and as one of the other commentators posted, a campus rule was passed to stop these gay men from wearing dresses, purses, make up, and other female attire. You can probably upstand the awkwardness felt by straight young men attending an all male college, where other young men were taking on female identities. That could definitely trigger some strong emotions in young straight guys.

    Ooooh, poor babies. They couldn’t handle seeing men wear dresses. Gosh, that must have devastated their widdle minds.
    However awkward that may have made heterosexual men feel, that’s no excuse to limit the expression of others. There is no harm in men wearing women’s clothes. No one is hurt. Apparently Morehouse wanted students to conform to narrow expectations of gender roles.

    Obviously, these young men feel bombarded by the on-going pressures of society to force the general public to empathize with the gay life-style.

    I wish you bigots had a better grasp of reality. My LIFE is not a lifestyle. I didn’t choose to be gay. I didn’t wake up one day and decide “Gosh, I want to start sucking dick”. When I hit puberty and my hormones kicked in, they went in a different direction than other guys. I started looking at men, and I had no damn control over it. The only thing I chose, when I was 21, was to be openly gay–to come out of the closet. I didn’t choose to BE gay.

    And again, no one is trying to get you to empathize with gay people (it would be nifty, as some of us are great at empathizing with groups that we are not part of). We’re asking demanding equality. We’re demanding to be treated with respect and decency. You don’t have to like gay people, but you damn well need to stop denying us our human rights. You know, the same stuff the Civil Rights leaders have been asking for for a very long time for African-Americans. You ought to be able to see the parallel between oppressed minority groups demanding equality.

    Homosexuality is undoubtedly at odds with Christianity, and Morehouse is a Christian college.

    Well I’m an atheist, so I don’t give a rat’s ass what conflicts with that barbaric religion borne out of human sacrifice and lorded over by a genocidal deity. What else is your college at odds with? Gambling? Pre-marital sex? Wearing clothing with mixed fibers? Working on Sundays? Eating shellfish? I just want to know if it’s consistent.

    ****

    LaSonya Walters @98:

    Find my blog post, “How Ashley Miller ruined Dear White People and didn’t prove its point”, at https://lasonyacwalters.wordpress.com/

    Thanks, I’ll pass. You didn’t understand what she said. And your title doesn’t make a whit of sense. She didn’t ruin the movie by criticizing the actions of the homophobes in the audience. And no, *she* didn’t prove the point of the movie. The bigots on the football team did that.

  87. 111

    LaSonya Walters:
    I changed my mind. I decided to read your post and it’s as I thought. You completely misunderstood what Ashley was talking about.
    And yes, some of your comments are indeed homophobic, despite your protestations to the contrary.

  88. 112

    @97 Mr. C

    Their unfiltered, open rejection of the movie’s content gave this blogger the ammunition she needed to make her point, all straight Black men are aggressive towards the homosexual community. Not true at all. There was absolute harmony between the gay and straight young men on the Morehouse campus when we attended parent and student orientation with our son this summer.

    Do you believe your anecdotal evidence negates Ashley’s anecdotal evidence? I see absolutely no reason why both anecdotes are perfectly true.

    Ashley says nothing even remotely close that statement. You’re being ridiculous.

    Obviously, these young men feel bombarded by the on-going pressures of society to force the general public to empathize with the gay life-style.

    The fuck is the gay lifestyle? That’s not a thing. It’s just a justification for hating gay people. It’s just saying “I don’t hate them. I hate their lifestyle.” There’s no lifestyle. It’s just being gay.

    On the Morehouse campus particularly, there is a large population of gay young men, and as one of the other commentators posted, a campus rule was passed to stop these gay men from wearing dresses, purses, make up, and other female attire. You can probably upstand the awkwardness felt by straight young men attending an all male college, where other young men were taking on female identities. That could definitely trigger some strong emotions in young straight guys.

    No, I cannot understand or fathom such ridiculousness. Who cares? I’m young and straight. Some dudes wear ‘feminine’ things. Or they kiss. This is supposed to disgust me? Why? What the hell is wrong with you?

    @98 LaSonya

    Heterosexual men are, in my opinion, considered less important nowadays and as a result all of our children and their children are wanting to fit in with the LGBT crowd without any concern for “why” they choose to be that way. Their decisions are solely relied upon what’s “in” and what’s “not”. This is where it becomes an issue. I am neither homophobic nor prejudice, but last time I checked being LGBT was natural, a tendency that was conceived through birth. Today, most people in Atlanta, at Morehuse, and in the world are becoming members of gay culture simply because it is a trend and not because they were born that way. Unfortunately, THIS IS A PROBLEM!!

    Where do people come up with these bizarre ideas? Maybe I’m more “straight” than most other people, but I have no desire to have sex with other men. You think if it’s super-trendy I might be convinced? I’m sorry, but my experience has always been that sexuality simply does not work this way. Does it work this way for you? Because if this is genuinely how you think human sexuality works, then maybe you’re a bisexual. But don’t assume everyone else is.

    At best, people are is more free expressing and experimenting with their sexuality. How could this possibly be construed as a bad thing?

  89. 113

    It’s sad to see it’s basically business as usual at this institution of “higher learning.” I attended Morehouse for a few semesters over a decade ago and was one of numerous gay students who choose not to return every year, not the least because of the particular brand of hypocritical homophobia so rampant on that campus. Just a couple anecdotes: on my very first day of class, a young history professor, himself a Morehouse alum, vehemently exhorted us to be careful of the gays on campus, many of whom he warned were lurking about in secret trying to corrupt others, after which he asked all the “homos” to stand up so everyone could beware of them. Such hate-laced diatribe against queer people was terrifyingly common, and I was constantly concerned for my safety. Yet the rumors about Morehouse are true – it was astonishing how many of the same vitriolic homophobes there were indeed just bullies stuck in the closet. Just one example during my freshman year was a student who regularly pronounced that, “I’d beat a faggot yo,” Then imagine my surprise when, after having avoided him at every turn for months, late one night on a weekend when my roommate was away, he came into my room to propose that we should “kick it some time!” Imagine his confusion that I innocently didn’t understand and inadvertently turned him down. As time passed, it became clear that he was one of many “Men of Morehouse” caught in this exact identity paradox.

    However, this paradox is actually reflective of a wider crisis of identity, vision and vigor in which Morehouse has been caught for decades. The truth is that this college which once produced national leaders has long lost it’s luster; the famed “Morehouse Mystique” is now much more myth than reality. Because of uninspired stewardship and its resistance to evolving in a time when talented young people of color can attend any college in the country, Morehouse struggles to attract top students. It is a fact that Morehouse is one of the easiest private colleges in America to get accepted to and yet barely half of its students graduate within 6 years. The level of education there is uncompetitive in many areas, another reason that students choose to leave. To boost it’s academic performance profile, over the last couple decades Morehouse has been recruiting heavily in the Caribbean and elsewhere, offering tons of financial aid to international students. The year after I matriculated, over 1/10 of the incoming class was from the Caribbean, most of them on scholarship, and both the graduating valedictorian and salutatorian were from Trinidad. In my own freshman experience I had to be placed in upper level foreign language courses in order to learn anything, only to revert to lower level classes when I transferred to another school. One visiting professor even confessed to me that he had to significantly dumb down his introductory course for a class mostly populated by juniors and seniors. I’ve spent time at a mid-level regional public school that provided a significantly more robust education than that offered at the college attended by King, Samuel L. Jackson and Spike Lee. Yes, a Morehouse degree might still get you into top graduate programs, but the “Morehouse experience” does not adequately equip its students for national standards of intellectual rigor, and many Morehouse grads struggle when they arrive at top tier grad schools. The fabled Maroon Tiger is alas one of crumbling paper, and Morehouse has been failing its students in areas that its sister, Spelman and others have relatively thrived.

    The behavior of these ambassadors of Morehouse was disgusting and quite typical of the homophobia and general backward thinking endemic to an institution that is now but a shadow of it’s former relevance. Morehouse College is simply no longer a bastion of intellectual leadership. To be perfectly clear, Morehouse is actually BEHIND the curve of the evolution the African-American community is undergoing on issues of sexuality. Morehouse desperately needs to let go of its traditions of homophobia and plain old twentieth-century civil-rights-era stodginess. It needs to embrace the kind of forward thinking that’s been more energetically engaged by the women of Spelman. Otherwise there will be no interrupting its slide from beacon of black leadership to a mere curiosity, a tragicomic footnote in the history of American higher education.

    And yet there is possibility for redemption coming out of Morehouse itself: http://freethoughtblogs.com/ashleymiller/2014/10/25/a-letter-from-morehouse-safespace-president-marcus-lee/. Morehouse SafeSpace president Marcus Lee has penned a thoughtful and eloquent response to this event, which warrants attention and support. How can those who have moved on from Morehouse and similar environments of bigotry provide effective support for the potentially transformational presence of those struggling so bravely in its midst, as this brother is? That, to me, is the challenge and opportunity of this moment.

  90. 114

    doublereed @107:

    Heterosexual men are, in my opinion, considered less important nowadays and as a result all of our children and their children are wanting to fit in with the LGBT crowd without any concern for “why” they choose to be that way. Their decisions are solely relied upon what’s “in” and what’s “not”. This is where it becomes an issue. I am neither homophobic nor prejudice, but last time I checked being LGBT was natural, a tendency that was conceived through birth. Today, most people in Atlanta, at Morehuse, and in the world are becoming members of gay culture simply because it is a trend and not because they were born that way. Unfortunately, THIS IS A PROBLEM!!

    Like you, I found the above quote from LaSonya’s blog to be problematic. I think it is homophobic, despite her claims otherwise. It’s also hyperbolic and trades on her fears of people being free to explore their sexuality, which she views as a problem. Then there’s the fact that she thinks being LGBT is something that’s trendy, rather than an expression of who a person is. As such, it’s not something that people try to “fit in with” unless they feel that they are LGBT. There’s no great rush of heterosexual or cisgender people rushing to be LGBT. What can be seen is that some people are becoming more comfortable being who they are and not repressing themselves any longer.

    Apparently to homophobes like LaSonya this is a problem.

  91. 115

    @Opposablethumbs:
    My friend, I thought I was very thoughtful and respectful towards the blogger with my post. The author herself mentioned that the movie addresses the toxic affect of homosexuality in the black community. I felt like she used this experience to confirm the sentiments of the movie. My son was there and he said this person is exaggerating and that the vitriol did not stem from the whole team. I’m sure you will take her word over his, or accuse my son of being the main culprit, based on my comments which I am sure you perceive as homophobic. Before you take that approach to your analysis, just try to consider the point of view of someone else other than yourself. I already stated that the kids could have responded more maturely, but I am sure you will agree that they do not have to agree with the message. That is the beauty of living in this country. Right?

    Furthermore, you do not have to insult my intelligence to get your point across. Never mind snails and ear lobes, I get it, you think I am prejudice against homosexuals. This may be true to a certain degree, as I am sure you have your prejudices and dislikes (probably for people you believe that share my views). We all have prejudices. I try to acknowledge mine and understand why I have them. I can assure you it is not because of my so called, extreme homophobia. I just have an opinion and it happens to be contrary to yours. No hard feelings against you or the author. I hope you can extend me a piece of that enormous amount of tolerance you have in your heart. Thanks.

    @NathanielFrein:
    Homophobia insinuates that these young men are afraid of gay people. Nobody is afraid of gay people. They just find it disturbing that men are dressing as women. I’m sorry to disappoint you, but the practice of dressing as a woman when you are a man is off putting and can be confusing to the naked eye. Is that the goal of the homosexual person who dresses this way? Look, just because people find that type of behavior silly and sometimes strange, it does not make a person homophobic. I appreciate gay people, as much as I appreciate the rest of the human race. I just do not believe in campaigning for certain gay behavior or co-signing the effeminization and masculinization of black boys and girls. No homophobia over here, just intellectual thoughts and opinions. By the way, I think phobias are ignorant responses to something one does not understand. Gays have not done anything to make me or anyone else fear them. It is all love over here. Stop pulling the homophobia card please. Thanks!

  92. 117

    I appreciate gay people black people, as much as I appreciate the rest of the human race. I just do not believe in campaigning for certain gay urban behavior or co-signing the effeminization and masculinization thuggification of black boys and girls.

  93. Jay
    118

    Mr C you do know that Dr Martin Luther King Jr got his non violent approach from a black gay man right lol….one of his right hand men Bayard Rustin was gay lmao… So even with his Christian beliefs he didn’t look down on him no more than anyone else…. The famous “I have a dream speech” March on Washington event was organized by that same gay man so do you really know his MLK felt about gays….

  94. 119

    @110 Mr. C

    Homophobia insinuates that these young men are afraid of gay people.

    The -phobia prefix is ambiguous. It means fear, hate, and/or anxiety. In the case of homophobia, it refers to hate. Same with xenophobia.

    I’m sorry to disappoint you, but the practice of dressing as a woman when you are a man is off putting and can be confusing to the naked eye. Is that the goal of the homosexual person who dresses this way?

    Did it ever occur to you that maybe that’s just the way they want to dress? That they feel more comfortable that way? Maybe it’s not about you. Or did you ever – I don’t know – ask someone? Seriously, there’s a whole internet out there.

    We will stop pulling the homophobia card when you stop dictating what people can wear and how people express their sexuality. So, I guess we’re probably going to keep pulling that card.

  95. 122

    EVERYTHING is at odds with Christianity, depending on what parts and what interpretations you cling to in your religious lifestyle choice.

    For some people, someone else being black and unenslaved was/is at odds with their Christianity.

    There are LOTS of ways to use religion as a cover for being an asshole to others.

  96. 123

    Tony (#106)

    And yes, some of your comments are indeed homophobic, despite your protestations to the contrary.

    LaSonya’s probably defining homophobia either the overly-literal way Mr. C is or the way so many of us white people define racism—intentional feelings or acts of out-and-out hatred.¹ (A convenient definition for whites since that means there can be racism against us, which is our most favorite thing in the world to pretend.) Ironically, the movie isn’t at all shy about challenging that latter definition in various ways (including Lionel’s arc which deals heavily with the harms of so-called “benevolent” racism), which is partly why so many white people are completely losing their shit over it.

    …………
    ¹ Well, I don’t use that definition now, but I can’t deny that’s probably what I would have come up with in my teens or early 20s.

  97. 125

    Mr. C (#110)

    I just have an opinion and it happens to be contrary to yours.

    And what if it were just my “opinion” that black people are subhuman? Because you can’t have it both ways. Either you recognize even the most virulent, damaging forms of racism as mere opinions contrary to your own or you accept that your beliefs about gays are open to censure.

    Homophobia insinuates that these young men are afraid of gay people. Nobody is afraid of gay people.

    Wow, you are so not equipped to participate in this conversation if this is the level you’re at. Nobody defines homophobia as a literal fear of gay people. But it’s also not true that no one fears gays. Look at the part of MorehouseRefugee’s comment where he talks about the teacher’s paranoid rant. Or consider that the gay panic defense is a thing.

    I’m sorry to disappoint you, but the practice of dressing as a woman when you are a man is off putting and can be confusing to the naked eye. Is that the goal of the homosexual person who dresses this way? Look, just because people find that type of behavior silly and sometimes strange, it does not make a person homophobic. […] By the way, I think phobias are ignorant responses to something one does not understand.

    Dude. Dude! Do you even listen to yourself? I mean, really. “I don’t get why gay people do that thing that makes me uncomfortable. But I’m not homophobic, even though my reaction to gays fits my own definition for phobias.”

  98. 126

    @Mr. C

    …all straight Black men are aggressive towards the homosexual community. Not true at all….

    Quote it. Where in all of that blog post did she even insinuate “all straight Black men”. Prove it or quit lying on this woman.

    There was absolute harmony between the gay and straight young men on the Morehouse campus when we attended parent and student orientation with our son this summer. In fact, there was a gay young man checking my son and the other football players into their athletic dorms. He did not appear to be afraid for his safety. He seemed to be one of the more comfortable and confident persons in the building that day.

    This gent says differently: http://freethoughtblogs.com/ashleymiller/2014/10/25/a-letter-from-morehouse-safespace-president-marcus-lee/#comment-342878

    And for the rest of you drive-bys coming in here trying to justify your HATE (and yes, it’s HATE): You’re proving her point better than those boys in that theater. The Black community has a serious problem with homophobia/transphobia STILL and all y’all can do is try to defend it because queer people make you uncomfortable (seriously, who gives a shit?). I hate the fact that I’m quoting from such a hateful book, but you seriously need to take the plank out of your own damn eyes before trying to brush the spec from Ashley’s.

  99. 127

    Did ya’ll even WATCH the movie? Or where you so busy trying to find any way to remove the attention and discomfort from your white supremacist liberal bullshit, that you leave trying to tackle the issue of “black homophobia” because that is another cause for you to fight for that distances you from YOUR every day oppression of black and brown bodies?

    You know what I don’t get? The topic of “black homophobia” was in the goddamn movie: “There are three main plots in “Dear White People,” and one of them focuses on a black gay kid named Lionel, played by “Everybody Hates Chris” star Tyler James Williams, who doesn’t fit in with any group — not with gay kids, not with white kids, and not with black kids, who have historically treated him with homophobia and cruelty. His story is about the toxic effect of homophobia in the black community.

    Was this simply forgotten? This is being played up as “white people attacking black people,” and “distracting from the movie’s message,” but the “attack” was in the movie and part of it’s message. Homophobia within the black community is detrimental to those within it. It should be addressed. With care, to be sure: there’s enough undue credibility to the “black people are homophobic” stereotype as it is, and we shouldn’t be painting disenfranchised groups with broad brushes. But here, the culprits are specified. Those particular young men are wrong; those enabling said young men are wrong. They deserve to be called out.

    Homophobia insinuates that these young men are afraid of gay people. Nobody is afraid of gay people. They just find it disturbing that men are dressing as women.

    pho·bi·a
    ˈfōbēə/Submit
    noun
    noun: phobia; plural noun: phobias
    an extreme or irrational fear of or aversion to something.

    Even if we’re going to be hyper literal here, I’d have to categorize refusing to look at two men kiss, and shaming those who might have looked, as an extreme and irrational aversion, nevermind that “homophobic” is already commonly used to denote “bigoted against homosexuality.”

  100. 128

    As much as I love the gay people I know who are my friends and family, you gay commentators and so called sympathizers are really begining to disgust me, and it’s not because of your fucking sexuality. I don’t care what a homosexual wears in the general public, no matter how ridiculous it looks. Morehouse is a private institution. Unfortunately, I can’t wear tennis shoes when I go to certain nightclubs or a basketball jersey to court if I am an attorney wanting to address the judge. Guess what, you just can’t do certain things in certain places (wear dresses and rock a purse at Morehouse). It is just as ridiculous to see urban kids walking down the street with their pants down to their knees.

    Also, stop trying to make me see your point by pointing to the fact that I am black, therefore I should understand. I UNDERSTAND, I JUST HAVE A FEW DISAGREEMENTS

    Respond as much as you like, but this is my last post. We’re going to agree to disagree on this one. Good luck with your cause ladies and gentlemen.

  101. 129

    To keep things cogent I’ll be using bullet points:

    •The events outlined by Ashley are deeply disturbing.

    •The rampant homophobia and heterosexism evinced via the replies is also deeply disturbing (though not surprising).

    •There is an alarming trend with white people jumping very very quickly on the “but look at all the black on black crime!” bandwagon. (Yes, even among progressive liberals, though we are either too polite to say it straight up and/or consider ourselves to be beyond reproach because we’ve earned our “ally” card and therefore worked ourselves free of all subconscious racism.)

    •Because of the legacy of white supremacy and all that entails (deeply entrenched anti-black bias for starters) it isn’t far fetched to assume that sometimes the behavior of black folks is perceived by some (lots?) (even liberal progressive) of whites to be (subconsciously or not) overstated or pathologized.

    •And so it is within the realm of possibility that Ashley has some implicit and/or subconscious bias against black men which in tern informed her perception of the events. (I’m truly, honestly, cross my heart not minimizing Ashley’s experience or the pain she went through during that experience. What happened is horrible and very disgusting.)

    •I can imagine a world where black folks are so sick of the above narrative that some would feel compelled to speak up when they see this happening (or believe it to be happening). I’m speaking for Mane but if I had to proffer a guess I’d say the root of her/his argument at least somewhat resembles the above truths.

    •It’s supremely unfortunate that she/he saw it fit to infuse homophobia into her/his argument. Because of that, I regard Mane an asshat of a pretty high order. That does not, however, nullify my previously stated arguments.

    •It’s entirely possible that Ashley has rid herself of all subconscious racism and anti-black bias and none of the above arguments apply to her at all.

    •That still doesn’t erase the propensity of whites to too quickly raise the alarm about “black crime” or the ways in which black people oppress others, nor does it erase their subconscious anti-black bias. And so white people need to be very very careful when they write about the oppressive behaviors of folks of color and can (and should) expect folks to comment on that dynamic. They may be wrong and may have misread the authors intent but we can blame white supremacy for that.

    •Lastly, there is no gay agenda. LGBT is not a lifestyle nor is it a thing you can disagree with. Also, your timeworn ideas about gender roles and expressions seriously need to go away. Cut that shit out asap. Those notions are deeply damaging and toxic to society.

  102. 131

    Mr. C @110:

    My friend, I thought I was very thoughtful and respectful towards the blogger with my post. The author herself mentioned that the movie addresses the toxic affect of homosexuality in the black community. I felt like she used this experience to confirm the sentiments of the movie. My son was there and he said this person is exaggerating and that the vitriol did not stem from the whole team.

    She never said it was the entire football team. All she said is that members of the Morehouse football team acted in a bigoted, homophobic manner. That’s not a slight on the entire team, nor all black males everywhere.
    Have you no empathy? Can you not understand how uncomfortable it would be for a person who is part of a marginalized group to be surrounded by bigotry directed at her minority group?
    How comfortable would you be if you were in a theater with a bunch of white people, some of whom were talking about how disgusting it was to watch an interracial kiss on-screen?
    How comfortable would you feel to hear some of those white people root on a white guy beating a black man on-screen?
    I don’t deny what your son experienced, but you’re denying Ashley’s experiences and that’s not cool.

    Also, I hope to see an apology from you for this lie:

    Their unfiltered, open rejection of the movie’s content gave this blogger the ammunition she needed to make her point, all straight Black men are aggressive towards the homosexual community.

    At no point in the OP did Ashley make any statement similar to the above. You’re reading things into her post that are not there, and claiming she holds this strawman position. That’s intellectually dishonest and you should be ashamed of yourself.

    Never mind snails and ear lobes, I get it, you think I am prejudice against homosexuals. This may be true to a certain degree, as I am sure you have your prejudices and dislikes (probably for people you believe that share my views). We all have prejudices. I try to acknowledge mine and understand why I have them. I can assure you it is not because of my so called, extreme homophobia. I just have an opinion and it happens to be contrary to yours. No hard feelings against you or the author. I hope you can extend me a piece of that enormous amount of tolerance you have in your heart.

    I love how you’re trying to claim “no hard feelings” while you admit to having homophobic beliefs. Would you accept this from a racist white man saying “I know I have racist beliefs about black people, but no hard feelings against you or the author”? Your very beliefs are “hard feelings”!
    I’m not opposablethumbs, but I’ll say this: if you act in a bigoted manner, or show that you’re homophobic, I’m not going to be kind to you. I’m not going to tolerate you. I will be rude to you. You deserve it for treating me and other LGBT people as if we’re second class citizens.

    Homophobia insinuates that these young men are afraid of gay people. Nobody is afraid of gay people.

    False. You need to go learn what homophobia means. Yes, ‘-phobia’ usually means fear of something, but in this case, the term homophobia reflects its usage in society:

    Homophobia encompasses a range of negative attitudes and feelings toward homosexuality or people who are identified or perceived as being lesbian, gay, bisexual or transgender (LGBT). It can be expressed as antipathy, contempt, prejudice, aversion, or hatred, may be based on irrational fear, and is sometimes related to religious beliefs.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homophobia

    I hope you’ll readjust your opinion to reflect the reality of the word. I also hope you’ll come to understand how the attitudes expressed by the bigoted football players was homophobic. LGBT people are human beings deserving of respect and dignity, not disparaging or demeaning remarks for who they are.

    I’m sorry to disappoint you, but the practice of dressing as a woman when you are a man is off putting and can be confusing to the naked eye. Is that the goal of the homosexual person who dresses this way?

    Probably the same goal you have when you get dressed and leave the house. LGBT people exist. It’s a fact of reality. Sadly, there are people who would tell us “you can’t act this way or dress this way because we don’t like it”. Which is nothing more than saying “you exist on OUR terms”.

    That’s something the individual who is bothered needs to deal with. Are all to dress only according to the wishes of others? Do we exist to make others comfortable? What about our comfort? I hear this same argument from people who say “fat women shouldn’t wear tight clothes. I don’t like the look of it.” My response is the same: they don’t exist for you. They are dressing as they choose in a manner that feels comfortable to them. It’s not about you. If you have a problem with it, avert your eyes or find some way to deal with it. Being a bigot is not the proper response.
    Again, men wearing women’s clothes harms NO ONE. If some people are made uncomfortable, well, that’s their problem. They aren’t being hurt. In fact, what they need to do is reassess their beliefs about rigid gender roles. I found myself in a similar place several years ago, bc I too once believed there was something wrong with men wearing women’s clothes.

    Know what I realized?
    That that’s sexist.
    “There’s something wrong with a guy wearing women’s clothes”is a way of saying “men shouldn’t act or dress like women, bc there’s something wrong with being a woman”. Fuck that noise (and no, I’m not going to apologize for using coarse language; not being religious, I don’t have any use for opposing the use of words because they offend a deity). There’s nothing wrong with being a woman. There’s nothing wrong with wearing clothes that women wear. The only harm done is to antiquated notions of gender roles of men and women, and those gender roles are demonstrably harmful. If fewer people had these notions of the “proper” way for men and women to act, there would be less bigotry in the world. Stop supporting a system that traps men and women in roles that don’t apply to everyone. Embrace the breadth of human experiences and expressions.

    By the way, I think phobias are ignorant responses to something one does not understand. Gays have not done anything to make me or anyone else fear them. It is all love over here. Stop pulling the homophobia card please. Thanks!

    You know, your smarmy “I’m talking all respectful and not using bad language” is really pissing me off. You’re telling people-some of whom are LGBT, some of whom are allies-to stop complaining about the dismissal and denigration of LGBT people because reasons. You’re not showing that you care about how LGBT people are mistreated. You’re more concerned with ensuring that heteronormative and cisgender peoples’ feelings are taken into account. You don’t appear to care that LGBT people are oppressed and discriminated against. You’re dismissive of very real problems in the world. Problems that affect people who are not you. And that shit pisses me the fuck off.

    ****

    Comments like Mr. C’s are exactly why I despise calls to civility. His words are civil, but the message he’s sending is “Don’t criticize homophobia. Don’t speak out against bigotry. The feelings of heterosexuals are far more important than LGBT being allowed to exist on their own terms.” That’s treating LGBT people as if they are second class citizens…unequal to heterosexuals…worthy of continued denial of basic human rights. His words are the picture of Heterosexual (and Male) Privilege.
    Speaking of which:
    Straight Privilege Checklist
    Male Privilege Checklist
    and of course,
    White Privilege Checklist

  103. 132

    @ Mr. C

    People who wear tennis shoes are not regularly attacked, murdered, barred from marrying or any number of privileges that hetero couples enjoy, demeaned, abused, kicked out of their homes and communities, attempting and/or completing suicide, bullied, etc. etc. Please don’t you ever equate the danger that people who express their gender identities or sexualities in ways that that are natural to them but go against the status quo with something so absurdly benign as the wearing of tennis shoes.

    And because nobody has said it (that I can see): Not all the men who wear so-called women’s clothing are gay. People need to stop thinking that.

  104. 133

    doublereed @114:
    Notice the similarities between Mr. C’s cries to stop using the homophobia card and the cries of racists who say “stop pulling the racist card”?
    What is it with bigots who can’t deal with being criticized for their bigotry?

  105. 134

    @Mr. C

    As much as I love the gay people I know who are my friends and family, you gay commentators and so called sympathizers are really begining to disgust me,

    Then go be disgusted somewhere else. Nobody invited your bigoted ass here.
    BYE.

  106. 135

    Mr. C @123:

    As much as I love the gay people I know who are my friends and family, you gay commentators and so called sympathizers are really begining to disgust me, and it’s not because of your fucking sexuality. I don’t care what a homosexual wears in the general public, no matter how ridiculous it looks.

    I find it interesting that you don’t explain *why* we’re disgusting you. We’ve made it clear why your comments are disgusting, but I guess this is just another example of your dismissal of LGBT people: you can’t even elucidate your problem with the criticisms you’ve received. Maybe you’re not accustomed to being criticized. Maybe you’re accustomed to people saying “I respect your opinion”. Sorry, that doesn’t fly when we’re talking about human rights. I don’t respect the opinions of bigots.
    The fact that you continue to use the clinical word “homosexual” to refer to actual people is quite off-putting (in the same way that referring to women as “females” is). Also, I hope the “it” in your last sentence referred to the clothing, but given the homophobia you’ve displayed, it’s entirely possible you were referring to a gay person as an “it”. Yeah, you’re wearing your homophobia on your sleeve now. Thanks for being more forthright than your initial comment claimed. It’s much better to know who one’s opponents are. Especially when those opponents stand in opposition to a minority group achieving equality.

    Good luck with your cause ladies and gentlemen.

    That’s just dripping with sincerity.

  107. 136

    Chosen Name @124:

    And so it is within the realm of possibility that Ashley has some implicit and/or subconscious bias against black men which in tern informed her perception of the events. (I’m truly, honestly, cross my heart not minimizing Ashley’s experience or the pain she went through during that experience. What happened is horrible and very disgusting.)

    It’s more than possible. It’s likely. If you grew up in the US, you were soaking in a racist, homophobic, sexist culture. The best any of us can hope for is that when confronted with our biases, we reexamine them and ditch them. But they run deep, and we aren’t always aware of them.
    All that said, I don’t see how any bias on Ashley’s part affected her experience (although I can’t read her mind, and I wasn’t there). Being LGBT, she was made uncomfortable by the homophobia on display. That has nothing to do with the football players being black, and everything to do with their bigotry. From the sound of things, I’d have been uncomfortable too.

    ****

    Ashley:
    Did you ever imagine this post would generate this much discussion?

  108. 137

    @128 Tony

    Notice the similarities between Mr. C’s cries to stop using the homophobia card and the cries of racists who say “stop pulling the racist card”?
    What is it with bigots who can’t deal with being criticized for their bigotry?

    Yes it’s very strange.

    What I would really like is Mr. C or somebody to explain this to me from Mr. C’s earlier post:

    You can probably upstand the awkwardness felt by straight young men attending an all male college, where other young men were taking on female identities. That could definitely trigger some strong emotions in young straight guys.

    I’m sorry, but I’m a young, straight guy and I do not understand. I see no reason why this would definitely trigger some strong emotions in me. Please explain to me why this is the case.

    Because from over in my point of view, I don’t see what the big deal is. It looks like incomprehensible bigotry to me. You describe this as the most normal thing in the world. That’s fucked up.

  109. 138

    Chosen Name — I think you make very important points and the context in which the post occurs matters — the context of other white people jumping on bandwagons, the context of Morehouse, the context of what’s been posted on this blog, and the context of my personal history. All of which are complicated and interact in complicated ways. I come from a Southern family with a lot of explicitly racist attitudes — I was disowned by my father for dating a black man and have been and continue to be the target of hate campaigns from white supremacist groups like ChimpOut for being a “coalburner.” And that experience might give me some insight or credibility, but it in no way means I have an intuitive understanding of the day-to-day experience of being black or that I’ve been able to entirely remove the racist programming I was raised with.

    I am not sure it’s entirely possible to eliminate subconscious attitudes about race, and I am grateful for all of the comments of people who have much deeper knowledge of many of the issues touched on in this post. I was never trying to make claims about all of Morehouse or all of black people — and I don’t think those claims are accurate when they’re being made by others. From what I’ve read, my failure in racial attitude, to the extent that there was one, was in being surprised by this behavior.

    I have tried, as an ally, to be careful and to give a lot of space here for voices of color, especially those that have been critical. I am sure I have not been perfect. Thank you for your thoughtful comment.

    ****
    Tony – I really had no idea, this is by far the most productive and extensive dialogue that’s ever happened on my blog. Normally, I just get a lot of hate mail!

  110. 140

    #130 @tonyTheQueerShoop:
    Sir, you are damn near calling me every name in the book, bigot, homophobe, etc. Not to mention, I already had another one of your buds tell me how maybe I should be called nigger or sub-human too, so I can see how hate feels. Newsflash, that’s happened already and frankly, it’s cool I know how white supremacist behave. My point is, I have not intentionallly disrespected anyone or called anyone names, yet this is how you respond to me. I don’t say homosexual or lifestyle to disrespect you, in fact, I am attempting to be politically correct. I don’t claim to be an expert on all things gay no more than Ashley claims to be an expert on the black community or HBCUs. As far as me referring to a gay person as an it, that shit was the furtherest thing from my mind. Now you are just being silly and that’s why I agree to disagree. I could take more time to elaborate on your other critiques, but my fingers are getting burned out. Long story short, I think you want me to be someone I am not (a vitriolic hater of gay people). You pegged the wrong person this time my man. I understand that a number of people in here do not agree with me, but that is no reason to name call and attack. This is an opportunity to teach, not assassinate. I love learning, but I despise verbal attacks. Peace.

  111. 141

    What exact;y IS “womens clothing,” anyway?

    I mean, sure I get that things are marketed with certain demographics in mind… but these things are THINGS.
    OBJECTS. That are whatever the person who owns and uses them wants them to be.
    I once bought a shirt I liked. Found out it buttoned up strangely, discovered it was a “blouse,” a “women’s shirt.”
    Still wore it to work regularly anyway.

    I fucking LIKED it.
    What goddamned rule was I breaking?
    What the fuck was I doing that was offputting or out of place?

    For the last few years, off and on, I have let my hair grow out very long.
    My nieces, raised in the hellholes that are rural Virginia and Florida, would ask me, sometimes seriously, sometimes teasingly, why I had “girl’s hair.”
    They were following the cue of my sister, who constantly criticized me.

    I always replied “It’s not girl’s hair, it’s MY hair.”
    That’s just one tiny insignificant example of the nonsensical gender biases we grow up with.

    Mr. C., you keep saying you have a difference of opinion. This is true. But your different opinion is based on PREJUDICE.

    WHY do you refuse to examine and question your prejudices?
    All people have prejudices, all people should examine them.

    Don’t cherish them and cling to them like they are your precious binkie someone’s trying to take away.

  112. 142

    Also, why did Mr. C say “so-called sympathizer”? lol I don’t even understand what that’s implying.

    Maybe you’re just pretending to be sympathetic because God knows, how could anyone REALLY be? (or something).

    Actually I think it’s just a reflexively derisive way of denigrating someone’s concerns, same as “politically correct.”

  113. 143

    @Mr. C

    Sir, you are damn near calling me every name in the book, bigot, homophobe, etc.

    Not Tony’s fault if the shoe fits. You came here with your disgust on display, and we don’t accept that kind of shit around here, so matter how “nice” you may speak it. You are talking to real live queer people, so either accept that we find your opinions about us disgusting or leave.

    There’s the opinion to catch the hint, but at this point I’m doubting your ability to see just how hateful you’re being towards queer people as any way like white supremacists being hateful to us.

    This is an opportunity to teach, not assassinate.

    What is this even supposed to fucking mean? You’re not teaching us a damn thing. We know some straight people find us gross. We don’t care for and we’ve been telling your ass that this whole time.

    I also would like to point out to those reading along that while he’s been more than willing to keep responding to Tony, he seems to be ignoring this lady queer’s words. I’m sorry, am my words too salty for you? Too much ‘verbal abuse’? You can’t handle someone being viscerally angry at your shit? I can’t stand “agree to disagree” cowards like you. We get it, you’re a homophobe who cares more about the reputation of a football team than that same team learning how to deal with differences. You don’t have to keep telling us that.

    Don’t let the door hit your ass on the way out, and I hope your son learns to be a lot more accepting than you are.

  114. 144

    @ me, comment 124. That should have read, “…men which in TURN informed…”

    @ Ashley, thanks for the dialogue. I’m glad you were able to read my comment for what it was and not as a dismissal of the experience you went through. Your thoughts are really appreciated.

  115. 145

    @doublereed #132:
    I say that seeing a man dressed as a woman on campus would trigger strong emotions, because it is an all male campus. You would not expect to see a female student attending school at Morehouse. Maybe it would trigger a strong emotion of premature excitement and ultimate disappointment at discovering it was only a fellow classman dressed in drag. Wouldn’t you be surprised if you saw your 85 year old grandmother in daisy Dukes and a halter top. Sure, she has the right to do it in the general public, but I’m sure the senior center would not condone it. Why is it off putting, because it is unexpected and against the dress code. You cannot express yourself by wearing sagging jeans or gold teeth at this college either. Should that form of expression be tolerated as well? I think not. Don’t be silly dude. There is a time and a place for everything. No one said gay people can’t be gay or ever express themselves. Shall we allow students who would prefer to dress as klansmen to express themselves as well. Hell, why not let the entire football team wear their entire football ensemble to class too, helmet and all. Shit will begin to look a little ridiculous at some point.

    To Ashley F. Miller, writer of the blog:
    I apologize to you for saying that you set to prove that all black men are aggressive against gays. That was presumptuous of me. I was speaking to a well known stereotype of the black community, which is that we despise gay people. It’s not true. Just like the rest of the world, we have gay people in our families and we love them.

    You guys take care.

  116. 146

    It’s not true. Just like the rest of the world, we have gay people in our families and we love them.

    If your rhetoric here gives any evidence of what you think is “love”, then I feel sorry for the gay people in your family.

    I’ve had enough “christian love”. I’m sick of it.

  117. 147

    @Mr. C (#123)
    Looks like you have some internalized racism issues to work out in addition to all the homophobia. Sagging is no more silly at its heart than women wearing high heels. It’s only framed that way because it’s associated with blackness. Also, using “urban” as a pejorative? Really? Do you vote Republican, too?

    Respectability politics don’t work, dude.¹ Whites see black people relative to other black people; your own merits are forever irrelevant because anti-black racism isn’t based on anything real. You can only ever look “good” in comparison to the “worse” kind of black people (like gays and “urban” kids), and only if you’re actively throwing them under the bus. What you’re getting in return for that isn’t genuine respect, though, and you’re naive as hell if you think otherwise.

    (#135)

    Not to mention, I already had another one of your buds tell me how maybe I should be called nigger or sub-human too, so I can see how hate feels.

    Yeah, I did not call you the n-word or subhuman. I made a hypothetical to point out your hypocrisy. Why do you have a problem with whites who do consider black people subhuman? Isn’t that’s only an “opinion” or “disagreement”?

    And if you found the hypothetical provocative, where do you get off telling queer people like Tony and Ashley and Feminace and me we should consider your remarks about homosexuality “civil”?

    I think you want me to be someone I am not (a vitriolic hater of gay people).

    For fuck’s sake, no. Just as racism isn’t (only) vitriolic hatred of people of color, homophobia isn’t (only) vitriolic hatred of queers. I addressed this in #118 and others addressed it elsewhere. Maybe give your fingers a break by stopping to actually read what other people are saying.

    …………
    ¹ Hey, that’s a major theme of the DWP movie!

  118. 148

    Feminace (#138)

    I can’t stand “agree to disagree” cowards like you.

    I don’t know how he figures there’s any agreement here in the first place. It takes more than one person to agree on something.

  119. 150

    Ladies and getleman:
    A.Noyd you are indeed a fool! Thank you for all of your non-productive comments. You guys have absolutely fucking exhausted me. Your ability to have proper dialogue is smothered by your hate for those who disagree with you. The hypothetical that you mentioned was understood. It was just ineffective because in fact I do believe that people who refer to blacks as niggers and subhuman are entitled to their opinion. I don’t agree with their opinions of course, but they are entitled to have them. Anywho, I’m sure you have opinions that others do not agree with too. How would you feel if people told you shut up, your opinions are not accepted here. That’s ok, don’t answer, you will just twist the shit out of your response. Enjoy your life. As you were people.

  120. 151

    Well, shit. When I originally read this post, I foolishly hoped that Ashley’s experience was a horrifying outlier — that my more pleasant experience of viewing the movie was the norm, that the assholes who disrupted her experience were not representative of any significant group of Morehousians other than themselves, that the treatment Lionel received in the movie was intended to represent an extreme (and maybe somewhat dated) case instead of a present, and almost quotidian one. And then all these defensive asshats incapable of reading comprehension showed up in the comments to prove that I was being far too optimistic. *sigh*

    At least we also got to hear from people like Marcus Lee, Raynard Ware, Bailey, AMM, Shelese, and others who actually do care about making things better. The black community is far from the only one that has problems with discrimination against gay people, and discrimination against gay people is far from being the only bigotry problem that we have in Western society, but addressing discrimination in any of its forms, in any of the places it occurs, ultimately helps everyone who is discriminated against. I wish those who want to dismiss or minimize this incident, or deny Ashley the right to discuss her experience, would take a moment to think about that.

  121. 152

    “This blog is an unnecessary attack on one of the greatest institutions in the world.” Having traveled abroad, I just do not recall anyone abroad saying-hey, are you familiar with Morehouse. Now that is funny. Surely, Morehouse College is a great HBCU and several prominent black people are products of its training, but to cast itself as one of the greatest institutions in the world, surely it is not. I guess us black people that have attended HWCUs should make a film titled, Dear HBCU’s, on second thought, we will just sit back and watch the HBCUs fight for their place on the HBCU hierarchy.

  122. 153

    Mr. C (#145)

    The hypothetical that you mentioned was understood. It was just ineffective because in fact I do believe that people who refer to blacks as niggers and subhuman are entitled to their opinion. I don’t agree with their opinions of course, but they are entitled to have them.

    Oh, but anti-black “opinions” are apparently a special kind of opinion that you get to protest and criticize (when you’re not perpetrating them yourself), whereas anti-gay opinions deserve to be shielded from our scorn because they’re merely opinions and disagreements.

    Like I already said: Either you recognize even the most virulent, damaging forms of racism as mere opinions contrary to your own [ie. stop complaining about them] or you accept that your beliefs about gays are open to censure. Stop indulging in double standard.

    Also, no, white people are not entitled to call black people the n-word. That’s not an “opinion” or a “disagreement”; it’s blatant institutional violence. When we use that word, we enact violent oppression. (Lazy violent oppression, because history does most of the heavy lifting for us.)

    And we’re not entitled to think black people are subhuman. For one, it goes against fact. For another, any hypothetical “subhumans” shouldn’t face discrimination to begin with. For a third, whites’ primary responsibility in race relations is to dismantle our shitty, centuries-old system of racism, not keep on reinforcing it. For a fourth, this type of thinking so easily becomes the worst, most literal kind of institutional violence. (Hello, chattel slavery! Hello, brutal colonization of Africa! Hello, Jim Crow and his successor the prison-industrial complex! Hello, Tuskegee syphilis experiments! Hello sundown towns! Hello destruction of Black Wall Street. Hello, MOVE bombing. Goodbye, Yvette Smith, Trayvon Martin, Renisha McBride, VonDerrit Myers, Mike Brown, Tarika Wilson, and…. whoever’s due to be murdered tomorrow!)

    Obviously nobody can force us to get rid of our anti-black thoughts (how would that even be possible?) or keep us entirely silent about them, but any of us who do express them should be called out as harshly as possible and kept far, far away from any kind of power that we could wield against black people (including positions like kindergarten teacher and retail store clerk).

    But, for some reason, you think when we hop over to a different axis of power, it’s queers who need restraining, not homophobes.

  123. 154

    Ashley, Re: #76 I cannot and should not speak to what’s in your head. I’m calling out behaviour and written words. Just make the analogy. When was the last time you apologized to some finger wagging heterosexual who wrote a blog about being surprised a gay man made stupid comments about lesbians or trans women? Think about it. Why would a heterosexual person, on the basis of your identification with that marginalized group think you should be accountable to them for other “bad gay people”? Even if this het person was truly surprised, (let’s concede genuine surprise) where would they get off thinking it was okay to conjur up the purple triangle or define the shame you should feel for the affront to those who sacrificed in the Stonewall Riots, ie, how you should interpret and respond to some of the symbols of your cultural and historical oppression? (And as a bit of an aside, this is a Freethinker blog, can we please dispense with the hyperbolic sentimentality and fallacious arguments from authority and from tradition? But I digress…….)

    “What kind of school sends out ambassadors of hate? [All of them] Can it be the same one that sent out Dr. King? [black symbol of oppression, not yours; and sentimental shaming] Hewing to the stereotype of black homophobia makes Morehouse and the black community weaker, and there are real victims [no,no,no, do not call yourself an anti-racist ally and then make pronouncements about what blacks need to understand about black oppression].”

    Of course, I can’t claim to know what you should have done in hindsight. What I would wish is that you do what you asked the reader to do with your own words “Can you imagine what a kid on that team who was gay would have felt?” Pick one, pick any of these young black men and try to imagine what he was experiencing in that theatre….. one might be closeted queer, or one might have nightmares about fear of going to hell for being a sinner, or one may cry himself to sleep every night because he can’t stand one more day of having to express his gender as a male, or one was likely feeling an agonizing internal conflict because of the pressure which allows only a narrow, macho expression of his maleness. And we know they all were glared at or hissed at sometime today in a society ready to jail one in five of them for walking while black. The homophobic behaviour was not good. As I said, I am glad you called it out. I applaud your courage to share the pain those words and behaviours wrought. And hopefully someday you can have a dialogue with one or some of them about what you were all thinking and feeling in those moments. But I repeat, your expectation they behave differently/better about homophobia than white kids is honest but racist. And your tsk tsking comments about how good blacks should represent their cultural and historical symbols, etc was out of line.

  124. 156

    A. Noyd (#148)
    So what you are saying is, it is not ok to express opinions that are offensive to any particular group of people (except the particular group of people who express offensive opinions towards other groups of people) and by me saying that I do not think Morehouse should abolish its’ dress code which disallows young men to dress like women, sag their pants, or wear gold teeth, I am offending gays, men who like to sag there pants, and men who enjoy wearing gold teeth?

    Furthermore, by me expressing this opinion, I am being a bigot and simultaneously throwing urban black men and gay black men under the bus in order to feel better about myself or gain approval in the dominant white society? I believe you asked whether I vote Republican too. No, but is there something wrong with voting republican in your opinion? If so, be careful, your opinions could come across as offensive to the Republican Party.

    I used the word urban to be all-inclusive, not as a code word for blacks. I was referring to every young man, or woman for that matter who run around with their pants hanging down far below their behinds, notwithstanding their ethnicity or gender. In your opinion, do you believe we should have dress codes in society? Should it be ok for everyone to wear anything anywhere, or nothing at all if they so desire? I am not attempting to be facetious, I just want to understand where you think the line should be drawn, or whether there should be a line at all.

    My goal in the begining was to acknowledge that the team acted immaturely and to express the fact that they had the right to respectfully disagree with the message, not take a violent, steaming shit (as Ashley’s friend so eloquently put it) on other movie goers experience. Do you believe that no one has the right to respectfully disagree with the outward display of homosexuality as long as it is not hurting anyone? Do you have any objections to any acts or practices that are carried out in your presence without hurting others? I’m not judging you one way or the other, I just want to better understand your thought process. I am confident we can agree on a thing or two.

  125. 157

    @Mr. C

    Your ability to have proper dialogue is smothered by your hate for those who disagree with you.

    If you could only pull your head out of your behind long enough to see the irony in that statement, it would almost be funny. You can’t even have a decent conversation without bringing up how disgusted you are at us, and then have the nerve to whine about ‘proper dialogue’. I’d say “brother, please”, but you are no ‘brother’ of mine.

    Case in point:

    Wouldn’t you be surprised if you saw your 85 year old grandmother in daisy Dukes and a halter top.

    SO. THE FUCK. WHAT? An 85 year old woman is grown as grown can get and can wear whatever the hell she wants, no matter how ‘gross’ YOU may find it.

    Grow up, coward.

  126. 158

    Do you believe that no one has the right to respectfully disagree with the outward display of homosexuality as long as it is not hurting anyone?

    Do you believe that no one has the right to disagree with the outward display of having relatively recent African ancestry as long as it’s not hurting anyone?

    Which innate, inborn human traits are the ones people should be forced to hide and in what circumstances? With what justification?

    People with visible disabilities or other atypical physical attributes make some other people uncomfortable.
    When and where should we be hidden?

  127. 159

    Do you believe that no one has the right to respectfully disagree with the outward display of homosexuality as long as it is not hurting anyone?

    Of course you do.
    And decent people have the right to call you six shades of asshole for it, because in reality there IS no respectful way to be a bigot. And YES, feeling the need to tell an audience, some who are queer, that you disagree with their outward existence isn’t respectful in any kind of way.
    This is how free speech works.
    If you don’t like it, KNOW YOUR AUDIENCE. I’m sure there’s some places were you can quite easily get away with being a homophobe (those places are thankfully becoming less and less). Not here. And now you know that.

  128. 160

    Feminace, if I can differ ever so slightly with:

    Of course you do. And decent people have the right to call you six shades of asshole for it,

    Personally I would say that you technically can’t assert a right to an impossibility… that impossibility being to respectfully disagree with someone’s outward display of their own existence.

    You can disagree, but never respectfully. It’s always disrespectful (as well as being obviously pointless).
    As pointless as someone disagreeing with Mr. C. being “outwardly” a person of color, or someone disagreeing with me for being outwardly deaf.

    (I hesitated a bit over including disability along with with being African or LGBT, but then wondered… why? Is that insulting? If so, why?)

  129. 165

    Do you believe that no one has the right to respectfully disagree with the outward display of homosexuality as long as it is not hurting anyone?

    To “disagree with the outward display of homosexuality” is to demand that LGBT people remain closeted. So, no. That’s inherently disrespectful. There’s no possible way to respectfully demand that people hide some aspect of their personality just because it makes you uncomfortable. There’s no possible way to respectfully demand that your bigotry take precedence over others’ right to exist in public without being harassed or attacked because of it.

    Making your expressions of bigotry actually illegal would cross a line into curtailing your freedoms unacceptably, so technically you have “the right” to be an anti-gay bigot in public as much as you want. So, yay for you, you were able to express your bigotry without outright calling for violent attacks on LGBT people. If that’s the best defense you’ve got for your expression of bigotry then you’re on pretty weak ground as far as morality goes.

  130. 166

    Wouldn’t you be surprised if you saw your 85 year old grandmother in daisy Dukes and a halter top.

    SO. THE FUCK. WHAT? An 85 year old woman is grown as grown can get and can wear whatever the hell she wants, no matter how ‘gross’ YOU may find it.
    Grow up, coward.

    Everything must be arranged so that young, cis, heterosexual men are constantly surrounded by things that make their dicks hard, and never confronted with anything aimed at anyone with a different sexuality, at all, ever. To see old women dressing “sexy” is just as bad as seeing young men dressing to attract other men instead of women from the perspective of entitled straight male sexuality.

    I remember seeing a couple of long ranting angry screeds on Hulu after they aired an episode of “Battlestar Galactica” where two of the leads–a man and a woman, both over 50 years old–kissed onscreen and then got it on offscreen. Dudes were severely offended that TV deigned to show characters who didn’t make their dicks hard enjoying sex for themselves, without an eye towards offering any visual titillation to any young straight men in the audience.

    Welcome to patriarchy, Mr. C. Seems it’s gotten you firmly in its clutches.

  131. 167

    Mr. C (#150)

    So what you are saying is, it is not ok to express opinions that are offensive to any particular group of people

    Wow, you’re all over the place. I’m not going to respond to most of #150 right now because it’s based on a giant misconception that I want to try to clear up first. You need to understand that I don’t give a flying fuck about “offense.”

    I care about oppression and harm.

    Get it through your head that just because you can call two things “opinions,” that doesn’t mean they’re equivalent in effect. For instance:
    1. The Republican Party is a bunch of bigoted, economy- and environment-destroying lackeys of the 0.01% who need to be voted out of power ASAP.
    2. Palestinians are all a bunch of unhinged terrorists and need to be locked away or eradicated.

    One of those is an appropriate, fact-based political position. The other is a violent colonialist sentiment that regularly leads to the death of hundreds or thousands and leaves the rest ghettoized and severly economically disadvantaged.

    Republicans are not oppressed,¹ so even taking an aggressive stance against their policies does not contribute to oppression. (Rather, the opposite.) So, whomever it might offend, voicing #1 doesn’t actually harm anyone. Palestinians, on the other hand, are oppressed. There is a whole system in place (several, actually) built to keep them poor and dying. So, voicing #2 does harm because it contributes to that oppression.

    Can you understand the distinction I’m making? Between offense and oppression/harm? We’re not going to get anywhere until you do.

    …………
    ¹ As Republicans, that is.

  132. 169

    Mr. C @135:

    Sir, you are damn near calling me every name in the book, bigot, homophobe, etc. Not to mention, I already had another one of your buds tell me how maybe I should be called nigger or sub-human too, so I can see how hate feels.

    1-I’ve explained WHY I’ve called you those names. Despite your civil tone, so much of what you’ve said has been hateful.
    2-I do not condone the use of bigoted slurs. You can look back through every comment I’ve made, and I do not use sexist, racist, or homophobic slurs. They are dehumanizing and disgusting. I will however, use “swear” words, as you’ve seen. Not only do I not use them, if someone else were to use them, I’d condemn that.

    My point is, I have not intentionallly disrespected anyone or called anyone names, yet this is how you respond to me.

    I don’t care if you “intentionally” disrespected me or not. Your posts on this thread show your homophobia. They show that you’re more concerned with heterosexuals being comforted and made secure. You show absolutely no fucking concern for the plight of LGBT people. That’s reprehensible.

    I don’t say homosexual or lifestyle to disrespect you, in fact, I am attempting to be politically correct.

    1-calling someone or referring to people as ‘homosexual’ is clinical. It’s distancing. Treat us like people. Say gay people or LGBT people.
    2-‘politically correct’ is a term that needs to die. It’s generally used disdainfully by people who disagree with the efforts of others to be more compassionate and considerate of others, especially those people who have been on the receiving end of discrimination and oppression
    If you truly are trying not to offend people then don’t use those terms. Also, think about what words mean. When you use the word ‘lifestyle’, what does it mean? Think about that and then think about why someone would consider that offensive.

    As far as me referring to a gay person as an it, that shit was the furtherest thing from my mind. Now you are just being silly and that’s why I agree to disagree.

    Not so. I’m not being silly. You wrote:

    I don’t care what a homosexual wears in the general public, no matter how ridiculous it looks.

    This is ambiguous. Does the ‘it’ refer to the way the person dresses or the person themselves? You didn’t take care enough to craft your sentence in way to reduce confusion, which is why I was confused.

    I could take more time to elaborate on your other critiques, but my fingers are getting burned out.

    Despite the fact that you said you were done with this conversation, I think you ought to elaborate on my other critiques. They were substantive and had merit.

    Long story short, I think you want me to be someone I am not (a vitriolic hater of gay people).

    Stop trying to play psychic. I never claimed you were a vitriolic hater of gay people. I did claim that you’re spouting homophobia. I also mentioned that since we *all* are stewing in a culture of sexism, racism, and homophobia that we’re going to absorb these ideas. We’re *all* going to have biases and prejudices. It’s natural. What we all ought to do when confronted with these biases–which has happened to you in this thread–is reexamine them and determine if they’re accurate. If they are not, they should be discarded. I’ve pointed out numerous ways that you’ve demonstrated homophobia. Are you prepared to analyze your beliefs and opinions and weed out some of that homophobia? Or are you going to double and triple down and refuse to accept the homophobia you’ve displayed in this thread?

    You pegged the wrong person this time my man.

    No, I have not. I’ve pegged you as displaying homophobia based on the words you’ve written.

    This is an opportunity to teach, not assassinate. I love learning, but I despise verbal attacks. Peace.

    I really don’t care if you do not like verbal attacks. You’ve earned them through your dismissiveness and disregard for the lives of LGBT people. If you want the criticism to stop, amend your beliefs. It’s a hard thing to do, but it’s necessary in the process of becoming a better person.

  133. 170

    @ Mr. C

    I say that seeing a man dressed as a woman on campus would trigger strong emotions, because it is an all male campus. You would not expect to see a female student attending school at Morehouse. Maybe it would trigger a strong emotion of premature excitement and ultimate disappointment at discovering it was only a fellow classman dressed in drag.

    I’m sorry. Are we supposed to stop people from experiencing excitement and ultimate disappointment here? Is that really the “strong emotions” you were referring to? Those don’t sound like strong emotions at all, and I have no idea why anyone would care.

    No, I think you were referring to some other strong emotions. But then you realized that it was hatred and intolerance so you pretend this BS. This isn’t being civil. It’s being dishonest. Please be upfront with what you are trying to say.

    Wouldn’t you be surprised if you saw your 85 year old grandmother in daisy Dukes and a halter top. Sure, she has the right to do it in the general public, but I’m sure the senior center would not condone it.

    Jesus fucking christ man. How long do people have to hide shit about themselves? Seriously, what the fuck? I’m not even free to express myself when I’m fucking EIGHTY-FIVE??!!! Are you for real?!

    So this has absolutely nothing to do with the kids being young. The youth of the kids is completely irrelevant. You expect people of all ages to not express their sexuality if you don’t approve of it.

  134. 171

    Mr. C @151:

    My goal in the begining was to acknowledge that the team acted immaturely and to express the fact that they had the right to respectfully disagree with the message, not take a violent, steaming shit (as Ashley’s friend so eloquently put it) on other movie goers experience.

    Stop glossing over their actions. Various members of the team acted like homophobic bigots.

  135. 173

    @Jafafa Hots

    Personally I would say that you technically can’t assert a right to an impossibility… that impossibility being to respectfully disagree with someone’s outward display of their own existence.

    You know, you’ve got a point there. There really is no respectful way to say “stop existing where I can see it”, is there?

  136. 174

    Maybe it would trigger a strong emotion of premature excitement and ultimate disappointment at discovering it was only a fellow classman dressed in drag.

    Honestly from the way Mr. C describes Morehouse men, it sounds like they should barely be let out in public for fear of soiling themselves in a welter of uncontrollable emotion at the slightest provocation. Oooh, a woman! Excitement! Oh, not a woman. Cannot fuck. Disappointment. How will they ever bear it? How can they possibly cope with such injustice??

    They have to be protected from these emotions? Really? What else do they need protection from? Rude waiters? Impatient bus drivers who don’t wait at the bus stop long enough, and force them to have to wait for the next one? Having all the books they need for their big project already checked out of the library?

    Fortunately I am confident that, just as Morehouse students aren’t well-represented by the violent homo-antagonistic (since, as Mr. C insists, fear isn’t the operative emotion here) bigotry displayed by the football team, Mr. C. is doing a terrible job of representing the average Morehouse man. Though I’m sure there may be a few who are just as emotionally and mentally helpless as Mr. C describes, I am betting that the vast majority of them are perfectly able to cope with such mundane disappointments on a daily basis.

  137. 175

    Calvin, just so you know, I read your post, found it interesting to read, but I really don’t feel qualified to comment on it further for a number of reasons. Thanks for the link, though.

  138. 176

    I’m celibate and permanently unattached.
    Am I leading a straight lifestyle or a gay lifestyle?
    Because the thing is, either way, I’m still not fucking all of the same exact people.

    I do find certain people attractive. Can I have a “lifestyle” all alone in my own head without actually doing anything, all tucked away where nobody ever sees it?

    You know, the more I think about it the more I think “lifestyle” is just the way some people distill an entire person down to just a single act that they can’t stop fixating on. As if that act they can’t stop thinking of defines the entirety of the person.

    Why, it’s almost like it’s dehumanizing or something.

  139. 178

    How do we know any of this even really happened. People try to use the name Morehouse, rather exploit it for the page views.

    Next time, talk to one of the students and get a quote, or send a letter to administration or do anything to actually educate if these actions really occurred to improve the situation, instead being so focused on website visits.

    Otherwise, you need more people

  140. 180

    Ashley,

    This is an ill advised post. I personally will not watch your movie now.

    In attempting to stop insensitive behavior, you decided to write an insensitive blog. How do you think this helps?

    Just like the character in your story, those young men don’t deserve to be humiliated by someone that disagrees with their views.

    To be sure, I am not condoning their behavior. However, like the character in your story, they are kids! They are especially sensitive to peer pressure and they probably haven’t seen much of the world. Why would you degrade them in this way? Do you think it will help them to have the wrath of liberal media pointed in their direction? Are you even going to give them a forum to rebut and tell their side of the story?

    I surely won’t watch the movie. I hope everyone reading the post also chooses to boycott until you yourself learn that *your* words have power.

  141. 181

    @Christopher Stewart It’s not my movie. I’m just a person who went to go see a movie at a local movie theater and wrote about my bad experience there. If I am now the liberal media, that’s a major upgrade from my normal status. I hope you’ll note that I *have* given them a forum — right in the main body of the post.

  142. 183

    Jesus Fucking Christ. Stop calling men kids.
    Young men, yes… but not kids.
    If words have power, what do you think the effect of calling adults kids might be?

    I accept that young men do thoughtless things. I did. We don’t stop growing at 18. But I’ll put this right out there: I am a 49 year old white man. Do you really want to be trying to convince me that these young African-American men are kids? Do you really want me to think of these men as kids?

    Is this really the argument you want to put forth?

  143. 184

    They are especially sensitive to peer pressure and they probably haven’t seen much of the world.

    Not seeing how that’s an argument for keeping quiet about their loudly public display of bigotry.

  144. 185

    To be sure, I am not condoning their behavior. However, like the character in your story, they are kids! They are especially sensitive to peer pressure and they probably haven’t seen much of the world. Why would you degrade them in this way?

    Spending the duration of a movie voicing homophobic slurs in support of a racist white man beating a gay black man = not degrading.
    Writing a blog post expressing dismay and horror caused by this experience = degrading.

    Got it.

  145. 186

    Just like the character in your story, those young men don’t deserve to be humiliated by someone that disagrees with their views.

    Their views are bigoted.
    Their views degrade and dehumanize a persecuted minority.
    Characterizing this as a simple difference in views is insulting.

    This blog post doesn’t even mention their names.
    If they are humiliated by their views being exposed then perhaps they should think about those views.

    As far as “just like the character in the story” I have not seen it, but apparently the character in the story was physically assaulted, not criticized… and assaulted for WHO HE WAS, not for his views.
    On the other hand, the people in the audience were merely mentioned without specifically naming them, not for who they are, but for what they did. And what they reportedly did was express bigotry.

    I have heard very similar false equivalencies too many damned times from white racists and bigots.
    Most here have said time and time again in response to white bigots who claim victimhood when their racist comments are criticized. to misogynists who cry when their sexism is pointed out, that being criticized for saying bigoted things or making bigoted attacks is NOT the same as being the victim of such attacks.

    In the same way, being criticized for engaging in homophobic behavior is NOT the same as being a gay person (albeit fictional) getting punched in the face.

    Nonsense. Embarrassing nonsense.

  146. 187

    The passion in this room has been spectacular. Thank you to all of the gay and straight people who took the time to point out my error in thought.At this time I would like to close out the conversation by making a few statements about what I’ve learned.

    1. First, let me say this. I am NOT a representative of Morehouse College. There are others who are far more qualified to hold that position than me. I only spoke about Morehouse because it was pertinent to the conversation. The dress code policy at Morehouse is in effect at many other places as well. Notre Dame BYU excetera, they are all institutions that have dress code policies and religious principles that they stand on right or wrong.I don’t claim to represent any of these institutions my views are my views.

    2. I have learned that it is offensive to refer to gays as homosexuals. I have also learned that being gay is not a lifestyle and as far as I can understand from those who spoke, it is not a choice.

    3. I have learned that my views are not actual opinions, but rather bigoted comments. in fact, contrary to what I thought, I am intolerant towards others who have different positions and interests.

    4. I have learned, I am homophobic and want gays to be locked up and hidden away so I can continue to feel comfortable as a straight male, because I am only interested in what makes my dick hard.

    For the record:
    I apologize to every gay or straight individual I have offended. I realize that regardless of my intentions, my words seemed to express a desire oppress others. I do not seek to oppress anyone. I try to understand everyone. I do not seek to convince you that what I say is right. I do seek to get the best understanding I can as to what the main issues are in the gay community as they pertain to dominant society. I believe that I’ve learned a few things within the last 24 hours and this is why I’ve hung in here for the last 24 hours going back and forth with those of you who sent comments to me. Thank you for your comments, I really do appreciate what you have to say. Take care.

  147. 188

    This article upsets me because it’s sounds to me let me bash these problematic Black male athletes at Moore house. For someone to be a feminist and LGBT activists who wants equality for all. Then educate not bash someone. You keep saying these athletes are students at Moorehouse and Dr. King is their alma mater. Your so disgusting with these Black men from Moorehouse college the same place Dr. King graduated from. What are you really trying to say here? Educate don’t male bash. Then the comment was made they were athletes and I was just so. This perpetuates that black men are dangerous and you were so afraid. That’s highly problematic! Homophobia is a real issue and singling out Moorehouse college was uncalled for.

  148. 189

    Male bashing?

    What are YOU trying to imply, Aharw? That relating an experience of witnessing bigotry, specifically homophobia, is an attack on men? On all men?

    Does that mean that being a homophobe is therefore an innate male characteristic?
    As far as “black men are dangerous – be afraid” I don’t see Ashley saying she was frightened.

    It was pointed out that they were athletes because they WERE ATHLETES… and specifically because that’s how Ashley discovered that they were all together, and where they were from… rather than just a random assemblage of strangers.

    As far as educate, was she supposed to stand up in the theater and give a lecture?
    She wrote this blog post about what happened, what these men did, and how it made her feel, now it made her react.

    There’s your education. Read it. Think about it.
    Read what it says, not what you imagine it says. Read what it’s ABOUT, not what you’re pretending it’s about.

    How else should she educate? How COULD she educate about this experience without doing that thing that offends you so much: mentioning it?

    Black men were cheering a racist white character for beating a black gay man. It upset her. She told the story.
    Your takeaway from that is “shhhhhhh!!!!”
    ?
    Seriously?

  149. 190

    Mr. C., if it weren’t for your obviously dismissive sarcasm in misrepresenting the views of your interlocutors, I’d commend you on your stated desire to learn. But, dismissive sarcasm and misrepresenting others’ views. So, better luck next time.

    Aharw Jones is just more of the same. Sorry it upsets you that this particular instance of homoantagonistic bigotry emanated from Morehouse students. That’s not Ashley’s problem, though. Gay-hating bigots ARE dangerous to gay people, regardless of whether or athletes or not, and regardless of their race.

  150. 191

    @Mr. C

    At this time I would like to close out the conversation by making a few statements about what I’ve learned.

    Now will he take his hurt fees and stick the flounce?
    Here’s hoping.

    @Aharw Jones

    Your so disgusting with these Black men from Moorehouse college the same place Dr. King graduated from.

    Firstly, it’s Morehouse. One O, one word. If you’re going to stan for the school, at least spell the damn name right, holy cow.

    Secondly, let me get this straight:
    A group of young men from a historically black college shows their asses in public. That’s not disgusting. But making mention of it, of who they are and where they were representing, is disgusting?

    Your priorities are fucked.

    Homophobia is a real issue and singling out Moorehouse college was uncalled for.

    Then maybe those students should have thought about that before they started acting damn homophobic fools where people can see and hear them.

    Instead of accusing this blogger of…whatever the fuck you’re implying…how about sending a message to those young men to act less like homophobic jackasses in public. THEY were in the wrong, not Ashley.

  151. 192

    I see Mr C. is trying to be respectful and have some kind of reasonable dialog but some of y’all are giving him no chance. Whatsoever. Your ad-hom based on the fact that he does not agree with you negates a lot of the otherwise useful points you have. It is a shame. Particularly Feminace. “Coward”? Really? It’s sad you resort to that.

  152. 193

    I mean, if what the guy (Mr C.) says holds true, that is, he has and loves his gay family members and friends then what more can you expect of him? Should you or can you not extend him a benefit of doubt? He openly declares he has gay family members (pls don’t project or read in to that too much) and loves them regardless. You can love someone unconditionally and not agree with everything they do or say. Reading through the entire thread it is coming off like a lot of you that disagree w/ his reasoning really are trying to make him into something he is not, in his words, a vitriolic homophobe. There’s a lot of projection going on here. And a lot of hate. I don’t feel I need to say this, but I’ll say it anyway just so it is painfully clear, I stand for no bigotry whatsoever as far as I can humanly control it. Detractors can try and call that into question but you will be wasting your time.

  153. 194

    Homophobia at Morehouse has been going on too, too long; considering that it is the Alma Mater of Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr., who embraced the openly gay Bayard Rustin as one of his closest friends, advisors, and confidants!! Dr. King recognized that NONE OF US ARE FREE UNTIL ALL OF US ARE FREE, and Morehouse is, regrettably, failing its students by NOT passing on the human rights legacy of its most celebrated student, onto its undergraduates–the future leaders of All of America!! MOREHOUSE NEEDS TO DO BETTER!!

  154. 195

    @186 Outsider

    Your ad-hom based on the fact that he does not agree with you negates a lot of the otherwise useful points you have. It is a shame. Particularly Feminace. “Coward”? Really? It’s sad you resort to that.

    Ad hominem refers to using an insult as an argument. If it’s not part of an argument, then it’s just an insult.

    Feminace was calling Mr. C a coward because apparently he’s terrified of letting men and 85-year old women express themselves. It makes him so terribly uncomfortable. That’s a conclusion, not part of the argument.

  155. 196

    Hello Ashley,

    I would like to first apologize for your experience. As both an Alum of Morehouse College as well as a past Maroon Tiger Football Player I am shocked to hear the conduct of some of the football players. Please rest assured that I have emailed the coach with regards to your grievance. My hope is that this one incident does not taint your impression of our fine institution. Morehouse has done so much for our society and can not be overshadowed by the actions of a couple athletes. All schools have a couple of bad apples … even your alma mater Emory University (which just so happens to also be the school I am currently attending as a graduate student) was the site of an egregious hate crime against one of the Jewish Fraternities just a few weeks ago. This hate crime is not representative of the Emory Community just like how those Morehouse football players are not representative of the greater Morehouse Community. It is our job as a people to rally around the good apples and reproach the bad ones. I hope my words added value to this ongoing discussion.

    Best,
    Concerned Morehouse Alum

  156. 197

    He openly declares he has gay family members (pls don’t project or read in to that too much) and loves them regardless.

    The problem with the “love” defense is that horrible abuses have been perpetrated out of “love”. People have been killed out of “love”. No one has questioned whether or not Mr. C “loves” his gay “family”. They’ve pointed out his rhetoric is hurtful and disrespectful to gay people, whether or not he used “naughty words”.

    I’ve had enough “love” for us queers. I want respect instead. And Mr. C has yet to show any.

  157. 198

    @187 Outsider

    This really isn’t that much of a argument. By that logic, anyone with a mother couldn’t have sexist or misogynistic attitudes. It’s fine to recognize that we live in a homophobic, sexist, racist society, and that we can hold biases and attitudes against ourselves, our friends, and our family.

    I disagree with your characterization of Mr. C. He’s not using mean words, but I would say he’s been highly disrespectful, intellectually dishonest, and completely dismissive of issues that LGBT people face.

  158. 199

    @Outsider

    Particularly Feminace. “Coward”? Really? It’s sad you resort to that.

    Excuse the fuck out of me if I find people who have to add a “but” to respecting their fellow human beings. He started in expressing his disgust, his disgust of some folks in this very fucking discussion, then tried to use some shit to get us to try to agree that we’re just as awful as he is (seriously, read that shit. 85 year old women, femme men, and gay men kissing gross him out, so it must be universal, right? WRONG.)

    “Coward” ain’t the worst thing I called him. There’s also a “fool”, a “bigot”, a “homophobe hiding behind his gay friends who he’s apparently cool with until they try to exist in his presence”. His unwillingness to make this shit not about his comfort level makes him a coward. There’s more to this world than making straight men ‘comfortable’.

    And if you feel the need to defend his hateful ass, you’re a coward too, and the both of you can kiss my queer ass.

  159. 200

    @doublereed #189,

    Okay then insult.

    It can devolve into semantics but still doesn’t remove the degradation into “personal” style attacks.

    But it’s funny, I never read anywhere of him claiming he was “terrified” as you put it.

    I did think though he raised an interesting point that no one clearly addressed and that is of boundaries. His point about where do we (each of us) set the bounds I found interesting. The example or analogy of the 85 y/o grandmother was perhaps a poor one. But his hypothetical about say, allowing people to roam around naked if you will, because indeed they have a choice to do that, I found interesting. I found it interesting because folks that jumped to “condemn” him didn’t really address that (unless I missed it), were somewhat swift to say that people should be able to “do whatever they want” (my words) but didn’t address where they personally would draw the line.

  160. 201

    @Top Cat

    Thank you, thank you, thank you. You are showing what behaving with integrity actually looks like. No excuses, no deflections, just doing the right thing. I just wanted to let you know that it is appreciated, and you are acting like the Morehouse Man I was reared up to admire.

    Again, thank you.

  161. 202

    Outsider, please re-read Mr. C.’s last comment.
    Pay particular attention to his numbered paragraph 4.
    Here. I’ll quote it for you.

    4. I have learned, I am homophobic and want gays to be locked up and hidden away so I can continue to feel comfortable as a straight male, because I am only interested in what makes my dick hard.

    You gonna try telling me again that that is sincerity? That is reasonable dialog?
    Bullshit.

    Then these:

    You can love someone unconditionally and not agree with everything they do or say.

    How do you “not agree” with someone being gay?
    Can you “not agree” with someone having brown eyes? “Not agree” with them having a natural talent for arithmetic? “Not agree” with them being Polynesian? Being gay is NOT something you “do” or something you “say” It’ someone you ARE. If you don;t agree with it, you are disagreeing with reality, and more offensively, you are disagreeing with that person’s right to their existence ad who they are.

    Then this:
    I stand for no bigotry whatsoever as far as I can humanly control it.M
    So then, the bigotry of “not agreeing” with someone being who they are… are you standing for it (as your first paragraph I quoted shows) and being dishonest with us, or are you standing for that bigotry because you cannot humanly control it?

    I am not a “detractor”, but I am calling that into question. Because you are rejecting the idea that you might have a bias.
    WE ALL HAVE BIASES. If you insist you do not, that simply means you are refusing to look for yours. That’s not detracting, that’s pointing out one of the… possibly THE most common human failings. The inability or refusal to question our own assumptions.

  162. 204

    But his hypothetical about say, allowing people to roam around naked if you will, because indeed they have a choice to do that, I found interesting. I found it interesting because folks that jumped to “condemn” him didn’t really address that

    OK, I’ll address it.
    There are MANY places on this planet where people roam around naked all the time, and you know what?
    It doesn’t fucking kill anyone. Even here in the US, there are places where it’s OK to “roam around” naked. San Francisco was one, until very recently. And there are degrees.
    In the entire state of New York, it is perfectly legal for women to go topless in public, just as it is for men. Has been for over 20 years.
    No deaths have been reported.

    So, yeah. letting people dress the way they want to dress is only an affront to people who can’t mind their own damned business.

  163. 205

    Wow, you guys respond quickly…

    Okay from the top,

    doublereed, 192

    I hear your calls of intellectual dishonesty but you miss that I say you can love someone unconditionally without agreeing with everything they do or say. Your point on acknowledging bigotry and biases is not lost but I fear you also missed that I said personally in my own case I try and examine my personal biases and control as much as I can as much as any human can do, or is willing to anyway.

    Feminace, 193

    Now you are just projecting. I won’t waste your time trying to engage or have dialog w/ you. I will say this though, this is a free thought blog (or at least espouses the notion). If you dismiss what I’m trying to say automatically and jump directly to me “defending” etc. without knowing my personal circumstance then I’d kindly ask you to maybe examine your own thought patterns. Why the hostility? This is exactly what I was speaking of in my OP. All good though, I won’t waste anymore of your time.

    Jafafa Hots , 196

    I’ll admit, I’m not the smartest cookie in the world but…

    4. I have learned, I am homophobic and want gays to be locked up and hidden away so I can continue to feel comfortable as a straight male, because I am only interested in what makes my dick hard.

    I don’t know whether this is sarcastic in tone, intentionally, purposely meant to inflame or whatever. In any event it would useful for Mr C. to clarify this. If this is what Mr C. truly believes, I cannot defend that.

    Are you saying folks being gay is something they do? If not then you’re reading into my post too much. At this point this conversation has become so “emotive” for lack of a better word, it’s hard to just have a conversation without folks projecting or reading too much into things. Words are terrible at expressing one’s true intention at times.

    And @ 197, you’re trying to make something out of nothing. Don’t use experiences you have had with others as a comparison to this small online encounter we just now have had. You don’t really know my personal circumstances and what I stand for. Clearly you did not read where I state that I look out for my biases and try to control as much as is humanly possible. Pls you’ve got to stop projecting too much. Try and think freely.

  164. 206

    @Outsider

    Why the hostility? This is exactly what I was speaking of in my OP. All good though, I won’t waste anymore of your time.

    If you can’t figure out that I was referring to Mr. C in all of that (since you pointed out that I called him a “coward”) minus the part where I call you a coward directly, then I thank you for not wasting my time. I prefer to deal with folks with some sort of reading comprehension. Have fun with this one, regulars, I’ll happily see how long s/he’ll last before running scared like the rest.

    Also, look up what the fuck this blog is actually about before you come in here trying to be all “I thought this was a ‘freethought’ blog”. That stopped being clever a long time ago. *YAWN*

  165. 207

    @Mr. C (#181)
    You’re one passive aggressive motherfucker, you know that? Even if you’re serious about some of that, you’re still failing to get most of what we’re saying. Oh, well. Have a lengthy and pleasant continued existence.

    ~*~*~*~*~*~

    Jafafa Hots (#196)

    Being gay is NOT something you “do”

    Outsider (#199)

    Are you saying folks being gay is something they do?

    Outsider, you need to sit down.

  166. 208

    Jafafa Hots , 198

    Fair enough. I might have a different opinion (on boundaries personal or otherwise) but I wont argue with that.

    One thing though, your point about “MANY places on this planet” is mostly moot unless you plan on relocating to these places. And just for FYI, I’ve been to some of these places.

    So, yeah. letting people dress the way they want to dress is only an affront to people who can’t mind their own damned business.

    This sounds good in theory, I wonder if you are being 100%, completely honest about this though.

    But the notion of freedom, and your point especially about no resultant deaths I cannot find fault with.

  167. 209

    Feminace, regarding Mr C., point noted. My oversight there. So then should the URL maybe not be updated to better reflect what this blog is currently about? Anyway.

    Well anyway, peace to you guys. Have a good one guys or try to. And on PURPOSE if I can add! I won’t respond to the others, it’s no use, you have already made up your mind.

  168. 210

    outsider…
    Try and think freely?
    Take your own advice. I will gtry this again.
    Reminder: the subject is homophobia and the treatment of gay people.

    Now, again. Here’s you.

    He openly declares he has gay family members (pls don’t project or read in to that too much) and loves them regardless. You can love someone unconditionally and not agree with everything they do or say.

    What he was disagreeing with was people expressing their identity openly.
    Being who they are. He feels that men wearing “women’s” clothing should not be allowed, despite those people seeing their clothing choice as a reflection of their identity, the same way you or I do.

    You here seem to be supporting his “not agreeing” with gay people being openly expressive about who they are… he feels certain expressions of it are off limits. Thats what I meant by you not supporting it.
    That was my perception of your statement. We may have been talking across each other.

    But one thing is clear… Mr. C., though I think not a HATEFUL person, simply has all-too-common prejudices that he’d rather coddle than tackle and defeat.

    As far as projecting, on this particular topic that does not apply to me personally, sorry. Try not projecting yourself.
    And think freely?

    I do try. You know how I try?
    By attempting to rid myself of patriarchal bullshit that our culture steeps us in.
    The religious patriachal bullshit, the bible-based bigotry and shame, along with all the other shit… toxic ideas of what it is to be a man, what woman are supposed to be..

    And what clothing I should demanding others be allowed or not allowed to wear. Or not wear.
    How about you try that on for size yourself?
    Think freely. Imagine that your “where do you draw the line?” question is in fact inherently bullshit, that your need to have a line is garbage put into your head by control freaks.

    (In case you were not aware, this blog network is largely if not exclusively made up of people who have studied and rejected religious dogma. That is where a lot of the disagreement with some of the commenters onj this subject may stem from. I’m told Morehouse is a fairly religious organization, and therefore it will have bible-based prejudices and restrictions and gender roles and distaste for certain realities of the world that we here have largely rejected.

    Sorry if I’m rambling, I’m talking to three people and am distracted.

  169. 211

    This sounds good in theory, I wonder if you are being 100%, completely honest about this though.

    Yes. I am. I reject dress codes. They are bullshit.
    I quit a lucrative job because after several years of stellar reviews for my work, the new management decided they wanted me to wear the idiotic and useless thing commonly called a necktie.

    I walk around San Francisco and I don’t give a damn that there are naked people on the street.
    I flew my teenage niece out here for her graduation and took her to the Castro among other places, and as she stepped off the streetcar the first thing she saw was naked middle-aged men Not something I expected, but big deal Who cares.
    She immediately called her mother in the horribly conservative Florida town they lived in, where the county librarian was fired over LGBT books… and told her, and her mother laughed and said “oh cool!”

    My niece then said “oh my god, California is so liberal – Iove it!”

    I myself in the past spent most of my time with no clothes on. Currently its not comfortable for me to do so.
    I have worked at places where others and the bosses took pleasure in fluting convention clothing-wise. Where openly gay and lesbian and transgender people were actually allowed to be openly gay and lesbian and transgender…

    I went to a high school where there was not only no dress code, dressing up in creative ways was strongly encouraged.

    I have NEVER been offended or concerned about what any other person was wearing, or how little they were wearing.
    I iive in a metropolis that has an annual naked bike ride.

    YES. I am 100% completely honest about saying I don;t give a crap what others wear or not wear. WHY WOULD I CARE?
    Why do YOU care?

    Why do you have a line that must be drawn?
    What is it about people that you find objectionable? What parts of people are too horrible to witness?

  170. 212

    One other thing too.
    This.

    One thing though, your point about “MANY places on this planet” is mostly moot unless you plan on relocating to these places.

    Do you recognize why this is a totally bullshit argument?
    There are places on this planet where there isn’t as much bigotry. Does that mean that it’s pointless to advocate for reducing bigotry here? That complaining about bigotry is moot unless I plan to move to a less bigoted place?

    It’s called working for change. For progress.
    That is what many of the people here do. Myself, I am disabled, so I can’t do much of anything. But that is what the author if this blog, and the authors of the other blogs here do.

    And then people come along and spend a day telling them how wrong they are for doing it and saying what they say.
    Every day it seems, a new batch.

  171. 213

    Jafafa,

    No you’re not rambling, make some pretty solid points actually.

    This in particular:

    Imagine that your “where do you draw the line?” question is in fact inherently bullshit, that your need to have a line is garbage put into your head by control freaks

    I might have used different terminology but it’s just semantics. I agree with the underlying notion though.

    No one is perfect. I try and think as freely as I can. I’m not perfect, but I try and improve myself.

    Also your points on Morehouse, religious background in particular is not lost. I agree, probably that’s where a lot of the more “staunch”, backwards if you want to call it that, viewpoints (that necessarily will lead to [strong/violent?] disagreement) is coming from.

    I read the post and the entire thread, this is my perception, everyone’s will vary, but what I could gather from Mr C. posts is he wasn’t being hurtful (or at least if he was, he was hiding it very well). I could have overlooked something, maybe I did, but my immediate reading of his posts, the tone anyway was that he was trying to have some kind of dialog. He was in turn being fairly strongly condemned (in language). It appeared to me he wasn’t returning like-for-like so to speak. But hey, maybe I missed something.

    Anyway, I thank you for your responses, and finer touches of nuance.

  172. 214

    Jafafa, what I may miss out on or not articulate so well, you take that and run w/ it completely and totally overlook any positive I may be trying to say. Highly combative my friend. I try and give the benefit. But whoa, damn! Anyway, prev post directly above still stands. Anyway, have a good one for real. You’ve made some good solid points that i cannot refute. Others I may not agree with in their entirety but I still think you made some good points. Anyway I’m out for now. I’ll probably return later. Despite the flame, this IS a good and useful discussion.

  173. 215

    I read the post and the entire thread, this is my perception, everyone’s will vary, but what I could gather from Mr C. posts is he wasn’t being hurtful (or at least if he was, he was hiding it very well).

    Multiple queer people pointed out exactly how he was being disrespectful and hurtful to them.

  174. 217

    This is more dialogue than you’ve shown you deserve, Outsider, but here goes:

    I mean, if what the guy (Mr C.) says holds true, that is, he has and loves his gay family members and friends then what more can you expect of him?

    I can and do expect him to listen to lesbian and gay and bisexual people (to say nothing of transgender folks) when they say that he’s repeating well-worn tropes of anti-gay bigotry that they’ve heard many times before, absorb that new information, thank them for the learning opportunity, and to stop spouting those bigoted tropes.

    Should you or can you not extend him a benefit of doubt? He openly declares he has gay family members (pls don’t project or read in to that too much) and loves them regardless.

    In that case then it’s EVEN MORE URGENT that he stop repeating anti-gay bigotry and harmful stereotypes, like the idea that all gay men are effeminate and all men who dress in women’s clothing are gay. In that case, I would expect him to be EVEN MORE GRATEFUL for having his mistakes corrected. Benefit of the doubt? Hell no. This is important stuff. This is human rights. His good intentions don’t make anyone’s oppression less real. If he’s related to people who are gay, then he has probably already said hurtful things to them. Wouldn’t he want to stop that? Wouldn’t he want to know how to tell if he was? Don’t you want that for him? What practical benefit does “benefit of the doubt” give if we’re not going to impart this vital information to him?

    You can love someone unconditionally and not agree with everything they do or say.

    First of all, unconditional love is a fictional concept. Second of all, you seem to be struggling with the concept that “gay” is just a state of being, it’s not necessarily an action or a word. Yes, gay people can and often do have sex with and fall in love with people of the same gender, but gay men (frex) who are virgins are still gay, yeah? Third of all, fuck people who “just disagree” with loving people of the same gender. It hurts nobody. It’s like “just disagreeing” with people who enjoy watercolors, but with the side effect that watercolor aficionados are routinely beat up for enjoying (or being perceived to enjoy) watercolors, as well as fired from their jobs, denied employment, denied housing, denied proper medical care, and a whole panoply of rights everyone else takes for granted. You know what “just disagreeing” with someone else’s sexual and romantic tastes makes you? A bigoted asshole, and also just fucking wrong.

    Reading through the entire thread it is coming off like a lot of you that disagree w/ his reasoning really are trying to make him into something he is not, in his words, a vitriolic homophobe.

    He’s just an ordinary person who has been steeped in a culture that promotes and lionizes vitriolic hate and antagonism towards gay people. So, please not to lie about what anyone has said here. Back up your statements if you’re going to make such charges.

    There’s a lot of projection going on here.

    Bullshit.

    And a lot of hate.

    Also bullshit. There was a lot of hate in the OP. Everything since has been pretty fucking tame.

    I don’t feel I need to say this, but I’ll say it anyway just so it is painfully clear, I stand for no bigotry whatsoever as far as I can humanly control it. Detractors can try and call that into question but you will be wasting your time.

    You’ve already decided that there’s nothing anyone can do to help you notice bigoted things you were doing and saying and could stop doing and saying? Then your statement about “doing whatsoever as far as I can humanly control [my bigotry]” is an outright lie. Either you’re willing to listen to criticism on the subject, or you’re not doing everything humanly possible to control your bigotry. Those two statements/attitudes/sets of actions are mutually exclusive.

    I read the post and the entire thread, this is my perception, everyone’s will vary, but what I could gather from Mr C. posts is he wasn’t being hurtful (or at least if he was, he was hiding it very well). I could have overlooked something, maybe I did, but my immediate reading of his posts, the tone anyway was that he was trying to have some kind of dialog. He was in turn being fairly strongly condemned (in language). It appeared to me he wasn’t returning like-for-like so to speak. But hey, maybe I missed something.

    Yeah, you missed a hellofalot, on account of apparently swear words confuse the fuck out of you. Like, I could say, “Hey, outsider, you look really fucking great today, has anyone told you that you’re a motherfucking champ and an awesome goddamn person?” and Mr. C could say, “Hello Outsider, I see you continue to persist in your course of fruitless investigation of the ordure and excreta of camels and vultures rather than engaging in meaningful human contact,” and I think you’d probably say that Mr. C was nicer than I was to you.

    Despite the flame, this IS a good and useful discussion.

    There’s no fucking flame. The “colorful metaphors,” as Admiral Kirk put it once, are essential parts of the discourse. They help in conveying emotional content alongside intellectual content, and a discussion of human bigotry and human rights would be incomplete and, well, probably useless if there was no emotional content to it.

  175. 218

    To Top Cat, #190: I hope you know and understand that the majority of people here, reading and posting, know better than to extrapolate from a football team to an entire college. Every institution has its cultural hurdles to overcome, and I’m positive, based on your response, and others, along with other news items I have heard about Morehouse prior to this incident, that there are good people fighting to overcome those hurdles every day. I hope this helps you, and them, in your fight. It is, after all, everybody’s fight, which just happens to be playing out publicly at Morehouse in particular at the moment.

  176. 219

    @SallyStrange in response to Top Cat #212

    I’m up late working on a school paper and thought drafting a brief response would be a nice break from work.

    Phrases like “representing your college and your hometown” as well as “ambassadors of hate” were used in the post.
    – Webster defines representing as, to act or speak officially for (someone or something).
    – Webster defines ambassadors as, an authorized representative or messenger

    By definition one can only assume that the writer is implying that the football players’ actions portray the greater Morehouse Community. John Kerry often serves as an Ambassador on behalf of the United States to many foreign nations which means that his words and action depict the interest and ideologies of our country. I am not sure how else I could interpret her words. I wish it was the case that groups of people wouldn’t get a bad reputation due to the actions of the very few, unfortunately this is not the case and in fact are the seeds that grow into the many stereotypes that exist today.

  177. 220

    Thanks for your response Sally.

    Personally there’s a lot of takeways in that post for me. You don’t need to push the point of oppression too strongly on me. Believe me, I know oppression very well. I say me, others on the other hand may need the lessons. I agree with much of what you say but you also accuse me of some things that I must strongly disagree with. It’s sad that you may have gotten that perception, but as I said, words can be terrible sometimes at expressing one’s intentions properly. You can think of me what you will (and use whatever language you want), that’s your right, I might not like it but still doesn’t change that you’ve made some good points.

    In that case then it’s EVEN MORE URGENT that he stop repeating anti-gay bigotry and harmful stereotypes, like the idea that all gay men are effeminate and all men who dress in women’s clothing are gay. In that case, I would expect him to be EVEN MORE GRATEFUL for having his mistakes corrected

    This is not lost on me.

    First of all, unconditional love is a fictional concept. Second of all, you seem to be struggling with the concept that “gay” is just a state of being, it’s not necessarily an action or a word

    Quite the contrary. But as I said previously, some things I obviously failed to articulate well. This was a general statement not directed at or intended to imply that being gay is a choice. In retrospect a poor perhaps maligned thing to say, but it’s why I asked to try not to project too much. Needed some work. But yeah I am a work in progress. As I said, hard to articulate some things but alas I’m not as blessed as some of you in this regard.

    You’ve already decided that there’s nothing anyone can do to help you notice bigoted things you were doing and saying and could stop doing and saying? …Then your statement about “doing whatsoever as far as I can humanly control [my bigotry]” is an outright lie.

    These are false.

    I ask you, where have I not tried to take on board the concerns that others have raised in response to my OP and subsequent posts?

    Yeah, you missed a hellofalot, on account of apparently swear words confuse the fuck out of you… …and I think you’d probably say that Mr. C was nicer than I was to you

    Nah. False also. I appreciate the point you’re making in that paragraph, but it’s not true.

    Besides these I can agree with much of what you say. You can disagree with me on some of the projection just as I can disagree with some of the things you say. To say there has been none whatsoever though or “bullshit” as you put it, I don’t know about that 100%.

    Anyway, thanks for your response.

  178. 221

    The comments which compare LGBT community’s struggle to civil rights for Blacks, are deplorable and a slap in my face as a black woman. The LGBT struggle doesn’t compare in any way shape or form to the struggle for black civil rights. If you do not believe me, you need to invest in a lot of literature addressing the history of the TransAtlantic Slave Trade and the Civil Rights Movement. My skin color can NEVER change. It is apparent when I first walk into a room full of my white colleagues and peers. I do not have White Privilege or protection for my protection and can never “pass” for white. There are many blacks who are like me, and there were much more during the civil rights movement. Btw, there is a great article on Yahoo about a white father raising his bi-racial son and he discusses the things that he will never experience as a white man, yet his son will. Check it out because it illustrates, in a nutshell, why the struggle of gay persons and black persons, are not the same. Being gay is not something that is always noticeable or apparent, even in so called effeminate men or masculine women. Granted some people can pass for white, but that is not common to all black people as many of us simply cannot. Some effeminate men may look like and dress as women and more masculine women may dress as and look like men. However, all gay men and women are not transgender or transsexual, who admittedly, are a group of people that still face a lot of discrimination in terms of employment and housing and are historically relegated to finding jobs and housing in certain areas. The fact that many gay people and advocates choose to not accept this and ignore this is ignorant and shameful. How dare you compare civil rights struggle of blacks of to that of gay rights. Homosexuals have NEVER been subjected the terror that scores of blacks faced in terms of the lynchings, brutal beatings, maimings, and unjustified killings that blacks endured during slavery and after. And guess what blacks are still experiencing a modern day form of slavery and racism, known as institutional slavery. This fact evidences that one’s supposed sexual identity based on outward or physical appearance is something that CAN be changed if necessary. You CAN blend and appear straight although you may not be because many times a gay person’s outward appearance (the way they dress and talk, etc.) is the same as a straight person. Most black people can NEVER do that. BTW, in case some commenters missed it, the Morehouse football team were cheering at a racist man beating a gay man who planted an unwanted kiss on him. Not at the fact that a black man was being beaten. The only thing the football team saw was that the man was gay. The team did not see color. Yet, the OP is incensed by the fact that the football team were not aware and disturbed that it was a gay man being beaten?! Why would they? This is what some of the commenters are calling out. In their view, the struggle of straight black people during slavery and civil rights is inherently different than theirs. And I get that. My issue with the blog, is that I wonder what would the OP have preferred instead? That the team yelled racial slurs and showed their outrage at the beating by antagonizing any white person, like herself, viewing the movie or crossing their paths once the movie ended? I don’t get what she want or expect them to do. Arguing with folks about why they are so wrong about homosexuality is almost like me arguing with someone who is racist. I cannot change their views, but I can as an intelligent human being pick and choose who I debate. In others words I choose not to engage with those that I feel are uneducated, ignorant, and not on my level. You can be racist, just stay in your lane and don’t put your hands on me.

  179. 222

    Hey Outsider, glad you got something out of my reply.

    This [the urgency and importance of helping people not inadvertently cause pain to LGB members of their family] is not lost on me.

    Awesome. Glad you’re on board with that. A lot of homelessness in America, I forget the exact percent, but it’s way too high, is caused by intolerant parents kicking their teenagers out of the home when they come out. Still. I’m not gay but was harassed for being gay throughout my junior high and high school experience.

    First of all, unconditional love is a fictional concept. Second of all, you seem to be struggling with the concept that “gay” is just a state of being, it’s not necessarily an action or a word

    Quite the contrary. But as I said previously, some things I obviously failed to articulate well. This was a general statement not directed at or intended to imply that being gay is a choice. In retrospect a poor perhaps maligned thing to say, but it’s why I asked to try not to project too much. Needed some work. But yeah I am a work in progress. As I said, hard to articulate some things but alas I’m not as blessed as some of you in this regard.

    Thanks for the clarification. Your wording was a tad confusing. Also, I don’t think “projection” is the word you want here. Not sure what is, but projection isn’t what’s happening, as far as I can tell. Nobody’s taking their issues and pretending that they’re your issues that you need to work out.

    You’ve already decided that there’s nothing anyone can do to help you notice bigoted things you were doing and saying and could stop doing and saying? …Then your statement about “doing whatsoever as far as I can humanly control [my bigotry]” is an outright lie.

    These are false.
    I ask you, where have I not tried to take on board the concerns that others have raised in response to my OP and subsequent posts?

    I see that you’re trying to do that now. I guess I would just point out that statements like, “You can’t tell me otherwise,” or “Nobody can convince me I’m a bigot” have the opposite of the intended effect, they close your mind down to possible criticism and people pointing out your blind spots. I know that keeping an open mind about my own fuckups with regard to race, transgender issues, disability issues, have all been instrumental in me learning how to better talk about those issues, with the end result that I’ve made some excellent friendships and connections with activists who are actively working on them. Very valuable and enriching.

    Yeah, you missed a hellofalot, on account of apparently swear words confuse the fuck out of you… …and I think you’d probably say that Mr. C was nicer than I was to you

    Nah. False also. I appreciate the point you’re making in that paragraph, but it’s not true.

    Okay, well, that seemed like the best hypothesis I could think of to explain why you were missing the dismissiveness, the entitlement, and the bigotry and disrespectful stereotypes, about gay people and women, and straight men too for that matter, that were dripping from Mr. C’s words. I think you are starting to get it now though.

    Besides these I can agree with much of what you say. You can disagree with me on some of the projection just as I can disagree with some of the things you say. To say there has been none whatsoever though or “bullshit” as you put it, I don’t know about that 100%.
    Anyway, thanks for your response.

    Seriously, I don’t think projection is the word you’re looking for. If you do think there is some projection going on, you should explain who is projecting what issue onto whom. And what makes you think that way.

    But thanks to you too.

  180. 223

    Hoo boy. I really shouldn’t, but…

    The comments which compare LGBT community’s struggle to civil rights for Blacks, are deplorable and a slap in my face as a black woman. The LGBT struggle doesn’t compare in any way shape or form to the struggle for black civil rights.

    Yes, actually, it does compare in certain forms, not necessarily, every way and shape though. And to say that it’s a slap in the face to you to compare them, isn’t that really a slap in the face of LGBT activists? You want equal rights, they want equal rights, how are they slapping you? Nonsense. Let’s not forget how instrumental LGBT people of color have been in the Civil Rights movement itself, Bayard Rustin was mentioned, how about Pauli Murray, James Baldwin, Lorraine Hansbury was an advocate for LGBT rights, whether she was gay or bi seems unclear.

    If you do not believe me, you need to invest in a lot of literature addressing the history of the TransAtlantic Slave Trade and the Civil Rights Movement.

    I would love to know exactly which readings you think would demolish the fairly obvious similarities between the Civil Rights and the Gay Rights movements. Again, nobody is saying that they are precisely the same, but there are certain similarities.

    My skin color can NEVER change.

    I wonder why you’re saying this. You think that sexual orientation is a thing that can change? Most LGB* people report that it does not and cannot.

    It is apparent when I first walk into a room full of my white colleagues and peers.

    Thence springs one of the major dissimilarities between fighting for equal rights for LGB folks and fighting for equal rights for people of color. You can, theoretically, in the short term at least, hide your sexual orientation. You seem to accept this as a premise without ever questioning whether one ought to hide one’s sexual orientation. I imagine that if you were to walk into a room with, say, your boyfriend or husband on your arm, your sexual orientation would become rather apparent to a casual observer. Do you think it is any different for gay people? Do you expect them to walk around with their lovers and spouses while pretending in public that they’re just platonic friends?

    I do not have White Privilege or protection for my protection and can never “pass” for white.

    Plenty of LGB people are also black and can never pass for white. In addition, they also have to face the prospect of keeping a major facet of their identity secret, or be ostracized and denied housing, jobs, etc., and possibly being beaten up if they do not.

    There are many blacks who are like me, and there were much more during the civil rights movement.

    Not sure what you mean by “blacks who are like you.” If you mean black people who lack white privilege, that would be close to all of them. If you mean black people who are dismayingly ignorant about LGB issues, well, yes. Too many, just like there are too many white folks and Latinx people and Asian people, etc., who are ignorant about LGB issues.

    Btw, there is a great article on Yahoo about a white father raising his bi-racial son and he discusses the things that he will never experience as a white man, yet his son will. Check it out because it illustrates, in a nutshell, why the struggle of gay persons and black persons, are not the same.

    Ah, you’ve moved the goalposts. Are you comparing the Civil Rights movement to the LGBT Rights movement? Or are you comparing the individual experience of being a black to the individual experience of being lesbian, gay, or bisexual? No doubt there are fewer similarities to be found in the latter comparison, but that doesn’t justify your previously stated outrage that people observe similarities between the movements to bring equal rights to both groups.

    Being gay is not something that is always noticeable or apparent, even in so called effeminate men or masculine women.

    Yes, and? As I pointed out before, there are actions you can take which announce your sexual orientation to the world: announce you’re going on a date this weekend. Bring a picture of your boyfriend/girlfriend/spouse to work. Bring your partner to a company dinner. Walk down the street holding hands. Go to dinner together. Kiss your partner at some point while in the restaurant. Go to bars and flirt in order to meet people. Rent an apartment or buy a house with your spouse/girlfriend/boyfriend. Sign up your spouse or partner for healthcare. Visit your spouse or partner while they’re sick in the hospital. Etc., etc. Are you suggesting that LGB people ought to refrain from all these mundane activities? If so, that’s horribly mean and bigoted of you.

    Granted some people can pass for white, but that is not common to all black people as many of us simply cannot.

    Shouldn’t we be concentrating on building a world in which nobody black feels the need to pass for white? And, similarly, where nobody who’s gay feels the need to pass for straight?

    Some effeminate men may look like and dress as women and more masculine women may dress as and look like men. However, all gay men and women are not transgender or transsexual, who admittedly, are a group of people that still face a lot of discrimination in terms of employment and housing and are historically relegated to finding jobs and housing in certain areas. The fact that many gay people and advocates choose to not accept this and ignore this is ignorant and shameful.

    I can’t parse this. I’m not sure what the gay people and advocates are ignoring here. The struggle of transgender people? That is a serious issue.

    Did you know that trans women of color comprise a shocking proportion of hate crimes committed against gay people? Something like 40% of anti-gay murders are of trans women of color. The mainstream gay organizations have actually really fallen flat on their faces in their inability to address such intersections of oppressions.

    How dare you compare civil rights struggle of blacks of to that of gay rights.

    It’s very easy. You look at one struggle, you look at the other. You note the similarities, and you note the differences. I just did it. What now?

    Homosexuals have NEVER been subjected the terror that scores of blacks faced in terms of the lynchings, brutal beatings, maimings, and unjustified killings that blacks endured during slavery and after.

    This is a lie, and it’s a lie that erases the fact that black people are also gay people and as such are subject to even more mob and state violence against them. Yes, LGB people were never enslaved for being LGB people, but you can bet that many of them were among the enslaved and the lynched. They always have been. And they continue to be the target of random mob violence, rape, hate crimes, and other assaults. Again: not exactly the same, but there are informative points of similarity. Denying the existence of these points of similarity just makes you look foolish.

    And guess what blacks are still experiencing a modern day form of slavery and racism, known as institutional slavery.

    Indeed, and, again, let’s point out that among those black experiencing institutional racism/the new Jim Crow, are black people who are also gay, who experience additional discrimination and violence because of it.

    This fact evidences that one’s supposed sexual identity based on outward or physical appearance is something that CAN be changed if necessary. You CAN blend and appear straight although you may not be because many times a gay person’s outward appearance (the way they dress and talk, etc.) is the same as a straight person. Most black people can NEVER do that.

    This is nothing but bigotry on your part. I can never hide my femaleness, but you don’t see me offering that up as a half-assed justification for my irrational anger at having the struggle for women’s liberation compared to the struggle for LGBT liberation. Again, as before, points of similarity and points of difference. It takes nothing away from my struggle as a woman to acknowledge that gay women face a whole nother type of struggle that I can’t directly experience (well, except when I was in high school, since bigots don’t really care about accuracy), and it isn’t a “slap in the face” to feminism to note the similarities to the gay rights struggle. Perhaps because I don’t buy into the societal stigma against gay people. In case I’m not being clear here: I am positing that the only reason you find comparisons between the Civil Rights movement and the Gay Rights movement insulting is because of your unexamined anti-gay bigotry.

    BTW, in case some commenters missed it, the Morehouse football team were cheering at a racist man beating a gay man who planted an unwanted kiss on him.

    You say this as if that makes it okay and understandable. That speaks poorly of you and your moral compass.

    Not at the fact that a black man was being beaten. The only thing the football team saw was that the man was gay. The team did not see color. Yet, the OP is incensed by the fact that the football team were not aware and disturbed that it was a gay man being beaten?! Why would they?

    Again, if you can’t see why anyone would refrain from cheering the beating of a black man by a racist white man, I think you need to tend to your moral compass before you start lecturing anyone else.

    This is what some of the commenters are calling out. In their view, the struggle of straight black people during slavery and civil rights is inherently different than theirs.

    Inherently different? What does that even mean? Blackness and gayness are inherent qualities, things you are, not things you do. Both movements are struggling to create a world where people aren’t unfairly penalized just for being the wrong type of person. So I’m not seeing this “inherent difference.”

    And I get that. My issue with the blog, is that I wonder what would the OP have preferred instead?

    Really, THAT’S your issue? It’s a pretty small one. I imagine the OP would have preferred, you know, silence over cheers. That would my preference if I were in that situation. Don’t you feel the same way, Crystal?

    That the team yelled racial slurs and showed their outrage at the beating by antagonizing any white person, like herself, viewing the movie or crossing their paths once the movie ended? I don’t get what she want or expect them to do.

    Again, NOT cheer on the onscreen depiction of an anti-gay hate crime. You really couldn’t extrapolate that for yourself?

    Arguing with folks about why they are so wrong about homosexuality is almost like me arguing with someone who is racist.

    Arguing with bigots, regardless of the target of their bigotry, is a pretty depressingly repetitive exercise, I agree.

    I cannot change their views, but I can as an intelligent human being pick and choose who I debate. In others words I choose not to engage with those that I feel are uneducated, ignorant, and not on my level. You can be racist, just stay in your lane and don’t put your hands on me.

    Wait, so, after you just talked about institutionalized slavery/institutionalized racism, you’re saying “don’t put your hands on me” and you’ll be fine with racists? But with the institutions in play, it doesn’t matter whether any individual racist puts his or her hands on you. The institutions have their hands on you whether you like it or not. And often in contradiction with the conscious wishes and goals of many of the white people participating in those institutions. The weight of history is too great for any one or two individuals to stop racism just by keeping their hands to themself, so to speak. That’s one reason why the Civil Rights movement isn’t over.

    Anyway, I’m not sure what you were getting at when you were talking about picking and choosing whether to talk to bigots. Sometimes you do, sometimes you don’t. You seem fairly bigoted against LGB* people, yet here I am talking to you.

    I don’t think you thought this through all the way, Crystal.

    Better luck next time.

    *I say “LGB” instead of “LGBT” throughout because most of this discussion is about cis people with different sexual orientations. Very little of what is said here applies to the struggle for transgender equality.

  181. 224

    @Crystal

    SallyStrange covered the bulk of it, but I was struck by this part:

    Homosexuals have NEVER been subjected the terror that scores of blacks faced in terms of the lynchings, brutal beatings, maimings, and unjustified killings that blacks endured during slavery and after.

    Is this a joke? Are you joking here? Homosexuals and Transgender have been beaten, maimed, killed, ostracized etc. etc. for hundreds of years.

    If you really hate the comparison to black civil rights, then what about the comparison to interracial relations? Hell, Lincoln himself openly showed disgust towards interracial marriage. People could ‘pretend’ not to have relationships of people of different races, and they did. And if they didn’t hide anything, then they could be discriminated against, maimed, and killed, especially by members of their own family.

    Hell, even the arguments are exactly the same. The argument was that God separated the races by continents and therefore it was unnatural for races to mix. That’s the natural law.

    Are there differences? Sure. After all, even single LGB have to fake who they are. Hell, did it ever occur to you that someone in the football team may be a homosexual or bisexual? And that they have to hide who they are because of the open displays of bigotry and intolerance in the football team (and probably join in)? Did you ever occur to you how scary that might be?

  182. 225

    @Crystal

    The only thing the football team saw was that the man was gay. The team did not see color. Yet, the OP is incensed by the fact that the football team were not aware and disturbed that it was a gay man being beaten?! Why would they?

    Are you asking why people might be disturbed by a hate crime?

    …are you under the impression that only gay people care about other gay people? Do you have similar ideas that white people shouldn’t care about violence against black people? Or that men shouldn’t care about violence against women?

    …are you so homophobic that you think gay people should be violently beaten? Would you cheer???

    Because I honestly have no idea how this question makes any sense unless you’re a cruel, violent homophobe.

  183. 226

    Crystal @215:

    The comments which compare LGBT community’s struggle to civil rights for Blacks, are deplorable and a slap in my face as a black woman. The LGBT struggle doesn’t compare in any way shape or form to the struggle for black civil rights. If you do not believe me, you need to invest in a lot of literature addressing the history of the TransAtlantic Slave Trade and the Civil Rights Movement. My skin color can NEVER change.

    First off, as a gay black man who has experienced both racism and homophobia, I’ll damn well make the comparison. On top of that, I can’t properly express the level of disdain I have for your horrible attitude.

    My sexuality cannot change either. It is an intrinsic aspect of who I am, every bit as much as my blackness. As I said upthread, I didn’t wake up one day and decide that sucking dick would be a lot of fun. When I hit puberty, my hormones went in a different direction than other young males’. I had no choice over it. Hell, I realized I was attracted to men in 1987, when I was 12, and I knew no one that was gay. I hadn’t even heard the words ‘gay’ or ‘homosexual’. I didn’t know anything about sexuality, nor did I have any role models in my life to learn from (yes, it was a scary fucking time for me for about 8 years). All I knew is that I looked at men and found them attractive. Looking at a man, something stirred in me that never did when I looked at a woman.
    If you don’t believe my anecdote, listen to the American Psychological Association, who know far more about human sexuality than you do.

    Secondly, I see through your attempts to diminish the pain and suffering LGBT people go through by claiming that sexuality or gender identity aren’t intrinsic to who we are as people (which is funny in a tragic way, bc I wonder if you feel that YOUR sexuality is intrinsic to who you are). Even *if* sexuality or gender identity were not part and parcel of who we are as people, even *if* we made active choices to decide our gender identity and sexuality***, that still is no excuse for treating us as subhuman monsters without human rights.

    Have you noticed that none of the LGBT people in here (or our allies) have made claims that homophobia or transphobia is worse than racism? It’s because we aren’t interested in playing Oppression Olympics here. Black people have suffered. LGBT people have suffered. Both have suffered because of who they are. Both have been discriminated against and oppressed by people who do not want them to exist. It doesn’t matter if the oppression and discrimination aren’t equal (for that matter, how do you objectively go about determining that one oppressed group was more oppressed than another?). Black people do not have the market cornered on being treated like shit. The struggles LGBT people face to be recognized as humans with 100% human rights is incredibly similar to the struggle of blacks to be recognized as humans with 100% human rights.

    I find your comments insensitive at best, and apathetic at worst. I’ve read about the Transatlantic Slave Trade. Have you read anything about the abuse of LGBT across the world over the centuries?

    ***When did you choose your sexuality?

  184. 227

    Crystal @215:
    I missed this–

    I don’t get what she want or expect them to do.

    Is it that incomprehensible to expect others to NOT be bigoted shitstains? To treat others with respect and dignity? To not act as if who you are is grounds for discrimination, oppression, and physical violence?

    I expect that of other human beings. I guess you don’t.

  185. 228

    Mr. House @213:

    By definition one can only assume that the writer is implying that the football players’ actions portray the greater Morehouse Community.

    “The writer” has a name. Trying being a little more respectful of Ashley Miller on her own damn blog.

  186. 229

    Being that I am an ex Morehouse College football player I find their take on the movie really interesting. Homophobia stems from insecurities and a overall lack of understanding. Just as Morehouse student Marcus Lee stated, the matriculation through Morehouse is a grooming process, however, its a grooming process that is one sided. When I first enrolled at Morehouse in 2009 I was shocked by the 2 different cultures that existed at Morehouse. You had the football team, then you had the rest of the student body and faculty. This segregation that existed was very interesting to me due to the fact that I would have to exist in both cultures, not only did I have to spend majority of my day around the football team, but I also had to go to class, I had a family member on the staff and a few of my childhood friends attended the school. I knew it would be a task to coexist in 2 different worlds when the worlds were in the same location so I set out to integrate the the two worlds. Believe it or not, the football team was more open to this merge with the student body than the student body was.
    The same un-acceptance homosexuals feel, is the same un-acceptance that Morehouse College football players feel in their own home. But contrast to that, because of the negative stereotype about the sexuality of Morehouse students, due to recent portrayals of Morehouse students in media (Mean Girls of Morhouse ect.) to the rest of the world we are demasculinized for attending and playing football at this all boy institution not only known for its rich tradition and history but as of recent for the wrong things.
    Think about the movie School Daze and how film maker Spike Lee portrayed the schools football team, as if they didn’t exist, this is the actual reality of the school. This lack of acceptance leads to a lack of identity and when you lack identity, you try different things to find one. Some find their identity in over being over masculine to make up for the outside criticism and they just ignore the Morhouse student body and treat them as if they didn’t exist either. The coaches try and do a good job at teaching tolerance and assisting through the process of in-acceptance and in finding an identity in winning, not only on the field, but in life. But when you constantly receive hatred, for being yourself, you grow un-fond of that source of hatred and you begin to despise it and become intolerable to the slightest exposure to it. So this same ignorance that the Morehouse Football Players were displaying in that theatre stems from the in-acceptance from the homosexual community and the regular student body and staff of ‪#‎MorehouseCollege‬.

    When I first heard about Dear White People I reached out to film maker Justin Simien and suggested that if he were doing a film based on a college campus that he needed to include the perspective of a student athlete and that race and sexual orientation is a huge discussion amongst society and some light needs to be shed on it. I would think people would be open to seeing the perspective of a athlete, I think it would bring a better understanding to the decisions that you often hear about the pro and college athletes making in the media, and will bridge the communication gap between regular students and student athletes. Maybe Spike would team up with me on ‪#‎SchoolDaze2k‬ and allow me to tell how times have changed at ‪#‎MissionCollege‬ and share the HBCU experience from the perspective of a student athlete. Because even though we play a sport, we are people too and we deserve an identity outside of what we do, because its really not who we are. As well as being exceptional athletes, we are also; intelligent, musically inclined, lovers of art, scientist, doctors, entertainers, film makers, lawyers ect.
    -Miles Stroter

  187. 230

    SallyStrange @216:

    Glad you’re on board with that. A lot of homelessness in America, I forget the exact percent, but it’s way too high, is caused by intolerant parents kicking their teenagers out of the home when they come out.

    Is 40% the figure you’re thinking of?

    In collaboration with The Palette Fund and True Colors Fund, a new report finds that nearly all homeless youth service providers serve LGBT youth. Among the key findings, 94% of respondents from agencies reported working with LGBT youth, with providers indicating that 30% of their clients identified as gay or lesbian, 9% identified as bisexual, and 1% as transgender (for a total LGBT population served of 40%). Additionally, more than 75% of responding agencies worked with transgender youth in the past year. Survey findings suggest that 30% of clients in housing programs targeting youth are LGBT.

    “The findings from this survey demonstrate that many LGBT youth are at high risk of homelessness, often as a result of family rejection and abuse. The analyses offer critical insights into the challenges that these young people face when they seek help during a very difficult time in their lives,” states Laura E. Durso, study co-author and Public Policy Fellow at the Williams Institute.

    Nearly seven in ten (68%) respondents indicated that family rejection was a major factor contributing to LGBT youth homelessness, making it the most cited factor. More than half (54%) of respondents indicated that abuse in their family was another important factor contributing to LGBT homelessness.

    ****

    Here’s something that Crystal needs to read:

    Overall, we can estimate the number of males convicted of homosexuality from 19331944 at between 50,000 to 63,000. The number of homosexuals incarcerated in the Nazi concentration camps is not known, much less the number who died there. Rudiger Lautmann in his Gesellschaft und Homosexualitat: Seminar [Frankfurt: Suhrkamp, 19771, whose figures are used by Plant and other writers, estimates that somewhere between 5,000 to 15,000 homosexuals perished behind the barbedwire fences. These were victims who were labeled and processed as homosexuals. A figure of about 10,000 homosexuals is the one accepted by most scholars (although figures are thrown about wildly and estimates run as high as Jean Boisson’s one million dead.) Gay leaders and writers insist on higher figures in order to legitimate their claim of special pleading. Yet, why indeed are 10,000 killed less tragic than one million? In the aftermath of the Holocaust, numbers themselves seem to lose their significance. In any case, the major Holocaust institution in the USA, the US Holocaust Memorial Museum, recognizes the “gay genocide.”
    http://www.chgs.umn.edu/educational/homosexuals.html

    I’m not going to claim that LGB people experienced the exact same levels of hatred and oppression as black people. Nor will I claim that the number of LGB people who have been brutalized is the same as the number of blacks who have been brutalized. But that’s not necessary to make the point that LGB people have been dehumanized, and made to suffer. It happened during the Nazi regime and it continues to happen across the world today. The similarities between the brutalization and dehumanization of black people across the planet are quite easy to see if you open your eyes.

  188. 231

    Crystal – Tony! The Queer Shoop has provided some historical information. Looking at the present day, while the use of the term “underground railroad” may well be questionable, there are at least two groups using that term in their efforts to assist LGB, and/or LGBT people leave countries where their lives are in danger, not just from their neighbors, but from the governments themselves. The Friends New Underground Railroad, based in Olympia, WA, seeks to help people leave Uganda, while the Iranian Railroad for Queer Refugees, a Toronto group, assists those who live in Iran, a country well-known for its executions, by hanging, of those convicted of “sodomy.”

  189. 233

    @ Mr. House #213

    I’m up late working on a school paper and thought drafting a brief response would be a nice break from work.
    Phrases like “representing your college and your hometown” as well as “ambassadors of hate” were used in the post.
    – Webster defines representing as, to act or speak officially for (someone or something).
    – Webster defines ambassadors as, an authorized representative or messenger
    By definition one can only assume that the writer is implying that the football players’ actions portray the greater Morehouse Community. John Kerry often serves as an Ambassador on behalf of the United States to many foreign nations which means that his words and action depict the interest and ideologies of our country. I am not sure how else I could interpret her words. I wish it was the case that groups of people wouldn’t get a bad reputation due to the actions of the very few, unfortunately this is not the case and in fact are the seeds that grow into the many stereotypes that exist today.

    Fair point. Speaking for myself only, I think it’s incumbent on the Morehouse players to be cognizant that they are representing their school when out in public wearing their team uniform. The fact is that they failed in that duty. They represent Morehouse whether they like it or not, just as I represent my company, whether I like it or not, whenever I’m out wearing the company t-shirt or jacket. Personally, though, I don’t take their failure as an indictment of the entire school, though the team is looking pretty dodgy, and of course the administration has questions to answer. But there’s also the myriad responses from Morehouse grads and supporters, some positive, some negative, the trackback from the Morehouse paper, Mr. Marcus Lee’s letter in the next post on this blog, etc. I think Morehouse has come off pretty well, overall, thanks to the sensitive response and the fact that most of the “Shh don’t talk about it because Morehouse is special” messages aren’t coming from official channels.

  190. 234

    Tony!

    Is 40% the figure you’re thinking of?

    I wanted to say 30% but I see I was underestimating it. Thanks for the info.

    Also, I am struck by a desire to hug poor adolescent Tony! who was so sadly isolated. I doubt people like Crystal are aware of the pain and suffering caused by their simplistic exhortations that gay people can always just hide everything that makes them gay if they want to avoid discrimination. Nevermind that just being denied the right to be who you are in public is a form of discrimination in and of itself.

  191. 235

    @SallyStrange
    Ironically, there have been African-Americans who were able to “pass” as white and who did. Crystal could look up some of their accounts. Passing saved them from some things, but you can’t escape oppression just because you’re not the direct target.

    And those who can pass have new concerns, like being expected to actively join in degrading people of their own race or orientation lest they raise suspicion.

  192. 236

    @Crystal: I am a black woman, too, but I disagree with you.

    Sally Strange already addressed this thoroughly, but I will add my comments. I agree that the comparison of the LGBT struggle for civil rights to the black struggle for civil rights offends you is because you are conflating different issues. The degree of oppression or unfair treatment that one experiences as a visible vs. invisible member of a disenfranchised group is a separate issue than how similar the LGBT civil rights movement is to the black civil rights movement. The ability to pass as members of a powerful demographic doesn’t negate the extreme self-loathing, anger, confusion and other forms of psychological damage that people often suffer when they do it. The ability to pass doesn’t obviate the danger people can find themselves in when they’re exposed.

    Is it more dangerous to be visible? Yes. But is it harder? Ultimately? When you take all the other variables into account?

    Additionally, not even the civil rights struggles of other races are identical to the black civil rights movement– for reasons you’ve pointed out yourself. In the history of the U.S., Irish, Germans, Chinese, Jews and others have also experienced savage discrimination, but Africans/blacks have still been regarded as especially inhuman in comparison. That matters when it comes to discussing the complexity of racial identity, or why some people’s struggles for equal rights have involved/seem to have involved less violence than others, but it doesn’t matter when it comes to whether or not the treatment is fair. Who gets to claim a civil rights movement is not an all-or-nothing proposition, and competitions over who’s suffered the most are deconstructive and irrelevant if we’re to stop mistreating each other.

  193. 237

    Outsider (#199)
    Thank you very much for trying to understand my thoughts and trying to defend me. I really appreciate your efforts, so I have returned one more time to attempt to clear the air.

    To everyone else who commented on the various posts I made and dissected my words, allow me to once and for all try to lay out my viewpoints and make sense of what I’m trying to say:

    I was working on a previous post but unfortunately my iPad jammed and everything was erased, so this post may not be as eloquent but I hope that it will do.

    1. In my original post my only goal was to state that what the team did was absolutely unacceptable and disrespectful. I also felt like they should have quietly got up and removed themselves from the movie theater if they did not agree with the movie’s content. I further tried to explain their motivations by infusing some of my own thoughts about the topic of gays . I believe that I obviously failed at getting my point across. My views are not the views of Morehouse or its football team. I do not believe that I am as bad as the staunchest homophobe nor am i as good as the most tolerant straight male on its campus. I fall somewhere in between because my views differ from each side of the spectrum on certain things.

    2. Like I said before I love all of my gay family and friends. I have never done anything to disrespect any of my gay family and friends and I treat them the same as I treat my straight family and friends. I love having interesting discussions and although I’ve never brought up my feelings on being gay to any of my family and friends out of the blue, but I have shared conversations whenever it was brought up. I never told any of my family or friends that I didn’t agree with them being gay. In fact, I have defended them against other straight family and friends.

    3. For the record I have no problem with anybody being gay. As far as the 85 year old lady in my analogy, I personally don’t have a problem with her wearing daisy dukes and a halter top. I think its funny, cute, silly, etc., anything but disgusting. The only point I was trying to make is that her attire could go against the policies of the Senior Center and I don’t think the Senior Center should be forced to change their policy. The same thing goes for Morehouse College. I don’t think they should be forced to change their policy of not allowing men to dress like women and men to sag their pants and men to wear gold teeth. There is absolutely nothing wrong with these practices in general public but this is a private institution and it goes against their policies and their traditions. If they decide to change their policies organically that’s fine, but once again I don’t believe they should be forced to change them. I would never want to hurt any of my brothers and sisters or any other gay person based on how they dress . So if you’re telling me that there are certain individuals who must be allowed to dress like women in order to feel whole, well then perhaps there should be accommodations made for these individuals. But if it is simply about expression then I think the school is well within their right to make their choice to disallow it, because private places are afforded that right.

    4. As far as paragraph number 4 in my last post, of course I was being sarcastic. I felt as if that was the light I was being casted in. I could care less about what gay people do in public any more than I can care about what straight people do. I believe that everybody should be free to do their own thing. There are certain behaviors I don’t agree with but I don’t have a problem with people being gay. Seeing a man walking in public dressed as a woman does not disgust me nor does it scare me nor does it anger me. It may have that effect on others however. I asked a gay male friend of mine how in the world he could not like pussy or having sex with a woman. He explained to me that he tried, but it disgusted him. The act and the thought disgust him. I think that some straight people feel the same way right or wrong about gay sex. I don’t believe that anyone should be stopped from being who they are and I’m not in favor of stopping gays from being gay. Some gay people do things I don’t understand or agree with and the same thing goes for straight people, they do shit I don’t understand or agree with. I point it out and talk about it from time to time.

    It’s so many things I want to say that I mentioned in my last post before it got jammed up, but I can’t remember everything. If you have particular questions you want to ask, or that I failed to address, feel free to ask. I will try to answer. Thanks.

  194. 239

    Mr. C @230:
    This doesn’t have much to do with the bulk of your comment, but this stood out to me and I wanted to comment on it.

    I asked a gay male friend of mine how in the world he could not like pussy or having sex with a woman. He explained to me that he tried, but it disgusted him. The act and the thought disgust him.

    You know, I used to think this way. In fact, for a period of 8 months back in 2000, I worked for an escort company. The final job I took was dancing at a bachelorette party. At one point, I was laying on my back on the floor and the women were playing truth or dare. Originally the idea is that they would straddle my crotch and play the game. One of them decided to straddle my face instead. At the time, I was grossed out. So much so that I quit working for the escort company after that. I was really turned off to the idea of a woman’s crotch being in my face. Following that, I was pretty vocal with my friends about how gross I found a woman sitting on my face to be and how I found women’s vaginas to be ‘icky’.

    The thing was, looking back, I think I took it too far. Yes, I’m not attracted to women (never have been, nor have I ever had sex with a woman, nor have I desired to have sex with a woman), so yeah, it makes sense that I wouldn’t want a woman’s genitals in my face. But the degree to which I took my disgust was…well…disgusting. I said it as almost a statement of fact: womens’ vaginas are gross and disgusting, rather than my opinion that it’s not something I prefer. There’s a subtle distinction to be made, but it’s an important one. Referring to a woman’s genitals as gross and disgusting implies that there is something gross and disgusting about women. There isn’t. I’ve come to realize that in the last few years, thanks to the influence of many great people around FtB (a few of them are in this very thread). While i still don’t want to have sex with a woman, I’m not going to phrase my preference as if there’s something wrong with a woman or her genitals. Rather, I just frame it as “I have no sexual attraction to women”.

  195. 240

    Hi, Mr. C (#230)

    I have not been involved in discussions lately, but your point of view reminds me a lot of my own family members, so allow me to share a little of my own life experience, for what is worth (not much, probably).

    Just like yourself in your point No. 2, my relatives and other acquaintances believe they are very tolerant and loving towards their gay friends. However, I notice their attitudes in practice are quite diverse from their discourse. They, too, eye with distrust what they believe is a growing influence of ‘gayness’ in society. They see this as a phenomenon foreign to their communities (my parents flirted with the idea that gay people were caused by American imperialism, but I think they’ve outgrown that by now). I don’t think they used those exact words, but most of them would likely agree they “believe in proper gender identification.”

    Sometimes I want to ask if their gay friends (who I never see) truly know they are their friends. I often do not — I’m wary of creating suspicions. I dare not out myself to them (or anyone in the town I live), because I cannot tolerate being seeing as the alien oddity that will bring shame to the group. I wish I could have a frank dialogue about that with them, say that the attitude they believe is tolerant makes me feel extremely unsafe, but, alas, I cannot without risking throwing my life into disarray, so I dispense unrequested anonymous advice over the Internet. I guess I have strange ways to cope.

    I don’t feel good for being such a coward, but my solace is slowly learning that there are many others as afraid as me. Maybe there are people close to you (or to other readers of this public forum) who have to hide like that.

    Maybe the world would have more tightly united communities if people were not driven to feel inadequate or risk their standing because of whom they are. Maybe we’d have more energy to pursue our dreams and fight for a better world if we hadn’t to hide part of our lives, for it certainly takes a lot of time. Or maybe I’m just a whiny crybaby on the Internet. It may be true: I certainly can’t be a crybaby in real life, or people might suspect I’m gay. And I wouldn’t know how to deal with that.

    Anyhoo, those were my (admittedly long) two cents.
    Peace.

  196. 241

    @Tony! The Queen Shoot

    Thanks for sharing. That’s funny, because I had a similar experience at a bachelor party. The young lady wanted me to lay down and allow her to sit on my face, but I wasn’t haven’t. I wasn’t trying to be disrespectful, but I was uncomfortable with her doing that at that moment. Now you and I have something in coming. Lol! Take care.

  197. 243

    I think it’s important to distinguish between “something I would find disgusting to do myself” and “something I disagree with.”

    If you simply mean that, for example, the thought of engaging in a particular sex act turns you way off… well fine.
    But “disagree with” connotes that you dislike OTHER people engaging in that.

    It might be just a language choice… if so, a different way of wording that would be advisable.
    But if its the second – if you disagree with other people doing something because the idea of that act bothers you, then a different choice of mindset would be advisable.

    As far as “private institutions get do set policy” that of course is a thorny issue. While we can all think of examples where that is necessary, I hope we can all think of examples where that has been a vicious excuse for horrible acts of oppression. So when it comes to policies that impact minority groups…. they had better be VERY well justifyable beyond simply “that’s the way we do things around here” or “it’s our tradition” or “values.” etc.

    I hope I’ve been stating the obvious.

  198. 244

    dõki @232:

    I don’t feel good for being such a coward, but my solace is slowly learning that there are many others as afraid as me. Maybe there are people close to you (or to other readers of this public forum) who have to hide like that.

    Please don’t feel that way. You are not a coward. You are doing what you feel is necessary to protect yourself. You and I both know that homophobia is very real and the costs of it can be quite deadly to many LGBT people. Acting in a way to ensure your safety is NEVER cowardly. I’m sorry you live in a culture and environment where you have to hide an important aspect of yourself so that you can be safe and secure. Would that it were not so.

    Just like yourself in your point No. 2, my relatives and other acquaintances believe they are very tolerant and loving towards their gay friends. However, I notice their attitudes in practice are quite diverse from their discourse.

    This is an important point. I’ve encountered many people who have a problem thinking through the implications of what they say. I’ve been around heterosexual people who are ostensibly gay friendly, yet I’ve heard them say “no homo” or “that’s gay” or “two guys kissing is gross”. They don’t realize how their words affect the gay people around them.

    “No homo” is telling others that you’re disgusted by anything that might make others think you’re gay or to doubt your sexuality. If you truly think there’s nothing wrong with being gay, then if others perceive you as gay, you won’t give two shits. People who truly feel there’s nothing wrong with being gay won’t cry out “no homo”

    “That’s gay” is often a comment I hear from people describing actions that they find outside the norm–a guy who drinks an Apple Martini or who likes “chick flicks” for instance. But what about those things makes them gay? Nothing. There’s nothing inherent to a drink that makes it something “for” gay people. There’s nothing about a movie that makes it “for” gay people (barring movies that are explicitly marketed to gay people, such as Brokeback Mountain, and you don’t see Hollywood producing many of those movies). When people say “that’s gay”, they’re making a judgement call about someone or something else and it’s often something they disapprove of. In the case of “that’s gay” in response to a guy drinking an Apple Martini, it’s both homophobic–because of the negative association with homosexuality–and sexist–because it’s said as a slight on a man’s masculinity, and for many men, the way to attack other men is to call into question their manhood, or insinuate that they’re like women (they never give thought to the fact that there’s nothing wrong with being like a woman).

    In the case of “ewww, two guys kissing”, that’s expressing disdain for something as innocuous and innocent as a same-sex kiss. It betrays a bias against gay people and a lack of comfort with homosexuality. It’s a milder form of homophobia, but it’s still homophobia. It’s a way of policing the actions of gay people. It’s a straight persons’ way of saying “I don’t mind gay people, as long as you exist on my terms and don’t do things that I’m uncomfortable with”, which is not cool. We don’t exist to make others feel comfortable. We have lives and hopes and desires that have nothing to do with other people and we should not have to take into account whether or not someone will be grossed out by a harmless expression of affection. Are we allowed to exist in public on our own terms, or do we have to clear things with other people first?

    Or maybe I’m just a whiny crybaby on the Internet. It may be true: I certainly can’t be a crybaby in real life, or people might suspect I’m gay. And I wouldn’t know how to deal with that.

    You are absolutely NOT a crybaby. I’m sorry things are so tough for you.
    Remember, if you ever need to, you can drop by the Lounge and chat. You are also free to hit me up on my blog (just click the link in my nym). Heck, I’m up for correspondence via email if you’d like.

    Be well my friend.

  199. 245

    It does not surprise me at all to hear of the behavior of a lot of the members of the Morehouse football team. One person responding to this mentioned something to the effect that Morehouse has a reputation to uphold. Well, I assert, that is exactly what happened. The actions of those who acted and spoke unseeing lay further cemented the “reputation” that Morehouse will not admit to – that underneath the “dignified” air, there is also a seriously homophobic vein. Blatant displays of behavior such as noted cause me to question the whole institution of Morehouse – from it’s foundation up to this moment.

  200. 246

    I am so way late to this, but something got in my craw and I need to get it out 🙂

    Kim agoro @ 17

    Everybody stop talking and get yourselves out in the real world ….do the work!

    I only speak for myself here, I don’t know what everyone else does with their spare time, but I would accept this as an accurate criticism of me.

    The idea of getting involved in activism fills me with, I don’t know even. Dread is too strong of a word. Existential horror is too melodramatic. Whatever my nameless fear is, I don’t know how people do that every day. I couldn’t. I am glad as hell they do, but I am not made of that stuff.

    So I’m ok with your implication that I’m not doing “real work”. It’s something I have learned to shrug off from years of hearing men’s rights “activists” call anything any woman does ever “makework”. I know the value of the work I do and I don’t really need strangers to affirm it.

    But I don’t think you mean it that way. I suspect you mean it more along the lines of do something important. Not bad advice. At all! But not all of us are going to. Some of us are just going to have jobs. Some of us, most of us actually, are just going to be average.

    So I am less ok with the implication that the words on this tiny internet page in an unimaginable sea of internet pages is are where my life ends. It isn’t. I go to work every day and do a weird and kind of stupid thing that enables us to have things like shatter resistant windows. It’s small and arguably not at all important, even if useful. But even that isn’t where my life ends. I interact with people in the “real world”. I have a family. I have friends.

    Most of the “real work” in my life takes place in small private places no one else will ever know or care about. No one will even remember them after I die. And I’m ok with that. I’m kind of sorry you aren’t, but I’m kind of glad too.

  201. 247

    Well, I made the mistake of clicking on one of the trackbacks and found myself faced with photo of a “gays recruit children” poster… and the statement that “…homosexuals are often placed at the forefront of society. Heterosexual men are, in my opinion, considered less important,,,” and some garbage about it causing kids to “choose” to be gay, etc.

    What a steaming pile.

  202. 249

    Ashley, “How Ashley Miller ruined Dear White People and didn’t prove its point | My Blogs”

    Unless I am totally misunderstanding it… which is possible as I am sleep-deprived at the moment (as usual).

  203. 250

    @ Crystal

    How’s this for a “slap in the face”

    “Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere” – MLK Jr

    “I believe all Americans who believe in freedom, tolerance and human rights have a responsibility to oppose bigotry and prejudice based on sexual orientation” – Coretta Scott King

    “Homophobia is like racism and anti-Semitism and other forms of bigotry in that it seeks to dehumanize a large group of people, to deny their humanity, their dignity and personhood” – Coretta Scott King

  204. 252

    leni @238:

    I only speak for myself here, I don’t know what everyone else does with their spare time, but I would accept this as an accurate criticism of me.
    The idea of getting involved in activism fills me with, I don’t know even. Dread is too strong of a word. Existential horror is too melodramatic. Whatever my nameless fear is, I don’t know how people do that every day. I couldn’t. I am glad as hell they do, but I am not made of that stuff.

    To some extent I share in this. I’m not “out there”, pounding the pavement, being the activist that I know many people are.
    For one thing, I’m not sure how to go about *being* an activist.
    For another thing, I lack a vehicle for transportation anywhere (I live in NW Florida, and there isn’t decent public transportation).
    I was jobless for four months this year and even though I’m working now, I’m playing catch up, so I can’t financially support any organizations.

    I feel I’m not at a point in my life where I can’t do anything other than respond on others’ blogs, write on my own blog, signal boost , sign petitions, communicate on Facebook…that sort of thing.

    I will say that I’ve done a few things at a few jobs in the past. I’m a bartender, and I’ve engaged some of my fellow employees over the years on racism, homophobia, transphobia, skepticism, atheism, the problems with religion, Rape Culture…stuff like that. For a while last year, I was getting involved in conversations with co-workers on a regular basis that were kinda consciousness raising (for them). Conversations that I hope contributed to people becoming more knowledgeable about sexual harassment and Rape Culture. Being there and believing women who confided in me that they had been sexually harassed.

    But all of that just doesn’t feel like I’m doing enough. For all that I feel very strongly about social justice, I feel I should be doing more, but I don’t know what that “more” would be, nor what I could commit to. So I guess I just do what I can.

  205. 253

    leni @238:

    I only speak for myself here, I don’t know what everyone else does with their spare time, but I would accept this as an accurate criticism of me.
    The idea of getting involved in activism fills me with, I don’t know even. Dread is too strong of a word. Existential horror is too melodramatic. Whatever my nameless fear is, I don’t know how people do that every day. I couldn’t. I am glad as hell they do, but I am not made of that stuff.

    To some extent I share in this. I’m not “out there”, pounding the pavement, being the activist that I know many people are.
    For one thing, I’m not sure how to go about *being* an activist.
    For another thing, I lack a vehicle for transportation anywhere (I live in NW Florida, and there isn’t decent public transportation).
    I was jobless for four months this year and even though I’m working now, I’m playing catch up, so I can’t financially support any organizations.

    I feel I’m not at a point in my life where I can’t do anything other than respond on others’ blogs, write on my own blog, signal boost , sign petitions, communicate on Facebook…that sort of thing.

    I will say that I’ve done a few things at a few jobs in the past. I’m a bartender, and I’ve engaged some of my fellow employees over the years on racism, homophobia, transphobia, skepticism, atheism, the problems with religion, Rape Culture…stuff like that. For a while last year, I was getting involved in conversations with co-workers on a regular basis that were kinda consciousness raising (for them). Conversations that I hope contributed to people becoming more knowledgeable about sexual harassment and Rape Culture. Being there and believing women who confided in me that they had been sexually harassed.

    But all of that just doesn’t feel like I’m doing enough. For all that I feel very strongly about social justice, I feel I should be doing more, but I don’t know what that “more” would be, nor what I could commit to. So I guess I just do what I can.

    ****

    Ashley @240:
    I think Jafafa is referring to the post by LaSonya Walters (comment #98). Her blog post is titled: http://lasonyacwalters.wordpress.com/2014/10/26/how-ashley-miller-ruined-dear-white-people-and-didnt-prove-its-point/

    I read her post and-in addition to dripping with homophobia–it doesn’t make sense. She says you ruined the movie, but what you did was express frustration over the actions of the Morehouse football players and that the homophobia they display with regard to a black gay man helps prove one of the points the movie makes. I don’t think she’s even seen the movie, if her comments are anything to judge by. I think she read several things into your post that weren’t there. I also wonder if she also thinks (like another poster in this thread who since found out otherwise) that you had something to do with the movie.

    ****

    Jafafa @239:
    I read that post too and had this “Da fuq” look on my face the whole time. “Homosexuals are pushed to the front of society?”
    The bit where she says “heterosexual men are less important” sounds like something out of Men’s Rights playbook (although they would just say “men”).

  206. 255

    The only comment I have on this whole scenario is Anyone st Anytime has a Right to LIKE or DISLIKE anything that they want. A person that doesn’t like Snakes would have a Very Loud and Disgusted reaction to a movie that they didn’t know was going to have Snakes in it. There is nothing wrong with not liking something. I Don’t Understand how someone can provide you with information about themselves that you didn’t ask for , then get Angry when your response is Hey I Don’t Care To Know You Like That.My Opinion Only…Gays Need To Only Worry About ACCEPTING THEMSELVES and stop trying to find COMPANY…(which SOME who are miserable want).

  207. 256

    If you really look and listen; the MAJORITY OF HOMOSEXUAL’S (Adult, Professional and Mature) isn’t the one’s outside yelling….LOOK AT ME LOOK AT ME. They don’t NEED someone else’s APPROVAL of their PREFERRED relationships. That I can RESPECT!

  208. 257

    mrdjkey

    I Don’t Understand how someone can provide you with information about themselves that you didn’t ask for , then get Angry when your response is Hey I Don’t Care To Know You Like That

    Well I didn’t ask for the information that you are a bigot with poor writing skills and zero ability to think coherently. Stop shoving your bigotry, incoherent thought and poor writing skills down my throat! Keep your bigotry to yourself!
    Say, assuming you’re straight – so you never ever hold hands with or otherwise display affection towards an opposite-sex partner in public? You never avail yourself of legal advantages such as next-of-kin status, tax breaks, insurance, parental recognition, inheritance etc. with regard to your or anyone else’s opposite-sex partnership? You never ever display a family photograph or make any reference to family ties involving opposite-sex relationships? If you can’t say no to all that, you’re a flaming hypocrite.
    How about – I know it’s almost unthinkable to someone like you – but how about recognising that treating all people with decency, humanity and respect for them as human beings? You know you’re entitled to recognition of your full humanity, how about according that to everyone else?

  209. 258

    @mrdjkey

    If you really look and listen; the MAJORITY OF HOMOSEXUAL’S (Adult, Professional and Mature) isn’t the one’s outside yelling….LOOK AT ME LOOK AT ME. They don’t NEED someone else’s APPROVAL of their PREFERRED relationships. That I can RESPECT!

    Yeah, gays, this sad excuse for a human will only respect you if you exist in public the way he likes! How compassionate! How caring! How fucking cowardly!

    Look “mr.” (and what IS it with assholes called “Mr.”?), people get to exist in the way they chose without your say-so. They don’t give a shit and shouldn’t give a shit about your “respect”. I have no clue what you’re even trying to say with this “LOOK AT ME LOOK AT ME” nonsense, but yeah, flamboyantly proud gay men also count, no matter how uncomfy they make you. You don’t like it? That is your problem and your problem alone.

    Deal. Cope. Grow up. Keep your shit to yourself and out of decent company.
    (also, someone should really take your Caps Lock away until you truly understand how to use it because your words look just about as ignorant as they sound)

  210. 259

    Oh, and for folks feeling bad because of Ms. “Stop talking and do the work” drive-by, please don’t.

    Not only because the commentor was a shitty one off, but because you shouldn’t have to feel bad if circumstances keep you from getting out there. This shit right here? Replying and talking back again ignorance and bigotry? This counts. This is standing up, either for yourself or for others, and it matters. The fact that you wish you could do more? Matters.

    So yeah, hugs if you want ’em. Y’all rock.

  211. 260

    Thanks for clearing that up Mr. C.

    I thought it very honest. I’m probably that “more tolerant straight guy on campus” you speak of. In all honesty I was just calling it as how I personally perceived it to be. Just personally from what I could tell, you were trying to be reasonable, engage in civil dialog if you will. This is just how I saw it. Just me but I believe one can have good constructive dialog without becoming “enraged” too much or resorting to too much “colorful language” of the “personal attack” variety as another poster put it (love that term, I’m holding on to that one). I suppose it’s why I refrained from engaging (or engaging further) when it became clear that it would not be constructive in some instances. Highly appreciative of everyone that did respond in a civil and useful manner though. Highly appreciate that. I wish your son much success on his new journey. I can still remember when I went through college. Ten years ago now. Boy, that was a tough experience. I studied abroad. It was a tough, tough experience. The best to you guy.

    Tony! The Queer Shoop @231
    XD What a story. What. a. story. If you’ll allow me to indulge for a moment, no sh*t you took it too far! Lol. Great story. Thanks for sharing that. This is what makes things great in this world. Being able to learn from other peoples experiences. And lessons!

  212. 262

    mr. djkey (#246)

    Gays Need To Only Worry About ACCEPTING THEMSELVES and stop trying to find COMPANY…(which SOME who are miserable want).

    Yeah, If Only Gays Would SEGREGATE THEMSELVES or at least PRETEND to be STRAIGHT when around STRAIGHT people (which sure wouldn’t make ANYONE MISERABLE, no siree!).

    Yeah, why wouldn’t anyone respect your solution of going Jim Crow on all the queers who can’t make themselves into marginally acceptable “house homos”? Must be because they’re intolerant.

  213. 263

    Also, this fucking snake analogy.

    Look, I went out to eat last night. A neighboring table ordered something drenched in truffle oil. Truffle oil smells to me like rotting corpses, and the stench lingers. Given my strong aversion to it, I asked to be moved to a new table.

    Now, let’s say it wasn’t truffle oil at the neighboring table, but black people. Let’s say I was a massive, anti-black racist who hated being near black people whenever I could help it. Let’s say I asked to be moved to a new table so I could be near other white people instead.

    Do you really think that would be the equivalent of asking to move away from someone’s truffle oil?

    Because it’s not. The latter would be an act of discrimination by a white person against black people in the context of a world where black people are already oppressed by whites. It’s harmful because aversions to black people are cultivated by racism and acted out as a part of maintaining the imbalanced, oppressive status quo. The former is harmless because truffle oil not only isn’t a class of oppressed people, it’s not even something associated with any; it’s associated with wealth and prestigious European cuisine. There’s nothing oppressive about wanting to get away from it.

    There are similar dynamics going on in the ridiculous snake analogy. “Oh god, gays, eww!” doesn’t have the same meaning or impact as “Oh god, snakes, eww!”

    Stop trying to portray aversions to classes of people as if they’re as unobjectionable as aversions to objects/animals.¹

    …………..
    ¹ I’m not talking about when an aversion to an object/animal is actually used as cover for an aversion to a class of people. For instance, a lot of racists use things like “soul food” or “do-rags” as a stand-in for black people. That’s different than the situation here where someone equates a supposedly natural dislike of an animal/object with the learned, artificial hatred of other human beings.

  214. 264

    mr. djkey @246:

    A person that doesn’t like Snakes would have a Very Loud and Disgusted reaction to a movie that they didn’t know was going to have Snakes in it. There is nothing wrong with not liking something. I

    A person who doesn’t like snakes is not the same thing as someone making homophobic statements. You’re making a false equivalence. One of those “preferences” is part of systematic oppression and discrimination. Societies around the planet are homophobic. LGBT people routinely have their human rights denied, from Australia to India, from Kenya to the United States. We LGBT people just want the same opportunities to live life as everyone else. We want to be able to exist on our own terms without being penalized for who we are. We want to live, breathe, work, eat, sleep, fuck, vacation, build families, have careers, read comic books, play video games, go to college and everything else that cisgender, heterosexual people get to do. But in countries around the world, we’re denied many of these basic things, because people harbor bias and prejudices against us. The same biases and prejudices on display by the Morehouse football team. If someone doesn’t like snakes, that doesn’t adversely affect anyone. If someone is openly homophobic, that contributes to systemic homophobia and oppression of LGBT people by fostering a climate where its ok to treat us as subhumans.
    That’s not cool.

    Would you have made the same comparison…offered the same defense of people who were displaying anti-black racism? What if audience members had a vile reaction to an interracial kiss between an Asian man and a black woman? Would you still be defending their racism?

    Also, as mentioned upthread “not liking homosexuality” is about as nonsensical as saying “I don’t like blue eyes” or “I am appalled by middle fingers”. Being LGBT is part of who we are. It’s unchangeable and integral to our character. It’s not something to “disagree” with. That disagreement is nothing more than bigotry disguised as “my opinion”. Well, when someone says “my opinion is that two men kissing is gross”, that’s homophobia. That’s a social ill in society. That’s wrong. And they deserve to be excoriated.

    So do you for your inane apologetics for homophobia.
    It’s fucking offensive to compare the bigotry that has led LGBT people to be harassed, bullied, tortured, raped, imprisoned, and killed to people who don’t like snakes.
    If you can’t find a better fucking analogy in the future, don’t fucking use one.

  215. 265

    mr. djkey @247:

    If you really look and listen; the MAJORITY OF HOMOSEXUAL’S (Adult, Professional and Mature) isn’t the one’s outside yelling….LOOK AT ME LOOK AT ME. They don’t NEED someone else’s APPROVAL of their PREFERRED relationships. That I can RESPECT

    I don’t need anyone else’s approval. What I do need is to have my status as a human being recognized by people and our government. I deserve that, and so does every single other LGBT person on the planet. Right now, the vast majority of us don’t get that. That’s the problem. Get back to me when you understand the extend of anti-LGBT bigotry across the planet. Til then please STFU.

  216. 266

    Feminace @250:

    Not only because the commentor was a shitty one off, but because you shouldn’t have to feel bad if circumstances keep you from getting out there. This shit right here? Replying and talking back again ignorance and bigotry? This counts. This is standing up, either for yourself or for others, and it matters. The fact that you wish you could do more? Matters.

    Thank you for this.

  217. 267

    Outsider @251:

    Highly appreciative of everyone that did respond in a civil and useful manner though.

    One of these days I’m going to get around to writing about my immense, planet-sized loathing of “Civility politics” (which is probably a second cousin to respectability politics). In short, civility is very often overrated. When it comes to movements geared toward human rights, civility is often used as a tool by the establishment, those in power, to control marginalized groups. When LGBT people (like many of us in this thread, for instance) speak up about our concerns, or criticize homophobia, we’re doing so on our own terms. For some of us, we use language that others deem coarse/harsh/profane/swearing/cursing*. Some people deem that language to be inappropriate. When you tell us that we’re being uncivil to you because we pepper our responses with FUCK or SHIT, you’re telling us “I’m not going to consider what you have to say until you say it on my terms”. Again, we have the right to exist as we choose, and we have the right to express ourselves as we choose. Yes, you have the right to not like coarse language, but if you’re not going to listen to what we have to say because we said FUCK 3 times, then you don’t really care about what we have to say. You don’t care about our efforts to be viewed and treated as human beings. You care more about us treading lightly around you and following your rules for discourse. To not care about that, is to side with the bigots and other people who demand that we live in this world on their terms.

    Another problem with Civility Politics is that civility often masks vile, dehumanizing attitudes. Take this sentence:

    “I think black people are less intelligent than white people. That’s why you find them playing football and basketball rather than being scientists or doctors or lawyers.”

    That statement above appears perfectly civil. The TONE is polite. But look at the words. Look at what it means. It’s racist as fuck. The fact that it doesn’t use so-called profane language doesn’t make it polite. It’s deeply impolite. The civil nature of the comment masks its deep bigotry.
    Contrast that with:

    “You’ll fucking find black people in all walks of life. Yes, they play football and basketball. But if you open your damn eyes, you’d see that black people are also politicians. They’re also dentists. They’re also educators. Pull your damn head out of your fucking ass.”

    The above comment contains so-called profanity. To many people, that profanity is off-putting. It’s not a nice tone. But look at what it says. It’s advocating for black people as people. It’s vehemently opposing racism. Look at the message that is being conveyed by the words. The tone is so often not that important–especially when we’re talking about social justice**.

    *The roots of ‘profanity’, ‘cursing’, and ‘swearing’ are religious in nature. The opposition to harsh words so often comes about bc of religious prohibitions on language deemed offensive to a deity. As an atheist, I don’t believe in any of the thousands of deities created by humanity, including Yahweh. I have no problem using language that others characterize as “profanity”.

    **obviously, if we’re talking about a certain context, say in elementary school, tone can be important. I’m not advocating ignoring tone. I think it has its place. But when people argue that those who are fighting for their civil and human rights need to strike the right tone before they can stand up and complain, that shit is wrong.

  218. 268

    @Tony, The Queer Shoop:

    One of these days I’m going to get around to writing about my immense, planet-sized loathing of “Civility politics” (which is probably a second cousin to respectability politics). In short, civility is very often overrated. When it comes to movements geared toward human rights, civility is often used as a tool by the establishment, those in power, to control marginalized groups. When LGBT people (like many of us in this thread, for instance) speak up about our concerns, or criticize homophobia, we’re doing so on our own terms. For some of us, we use language that others deem coarse/harsh/profane/swearing/cursing*. Some people deem that language to be inappropriate. When you tell us that we’re being uncivil to you because we pepper our responses with FUCK or SHIT, you’re telling us “I’m not going to consider what you have to say until you say it on my terms”. Again, we have the right to exist as we choose, and we have the right to express ourselves as we choose. Yes, you have the right to not like coarse language, but if you’re not going to listen to what we have to say because we said FUCK 3 times, then you don’t really care about what we have to say. You don’t care about our efforts to be viewed and treated as human beings. You care more about us treading lightly around you and following your rules for discourse. To not care about that, is to side with the bigots and other people who demand that we live in this world on their terms.

    THISTHISTHISTHISTHIS!

    I’m so bored of people who get all in their feelings when naughty words are said, especially when they say fucked up shit in the nicest tone possible. It doesn’t make it less fucked up, nor is my profane response less worthy of your attention.

    Profanity is precise. It pulls no punches. It makes it pretty clear how someone feels about the thing you just said…or the kind of person it makes you sound. It is anger put to words, which in the words of Sally Strange from another thread, is data. Data a person can use, if they are brave enough. It’s that bravery that is the difference between “Wow, I must have really fucked up here, let me reexamine what I just said to see why” and “You’re not worth listening to unless you wash your mouth out with soap!”

    …and that second response? Patronizing as fuck.

  219. 269

    mr [email protected]

    I doubt that you belong to any hate groups, but a perusal of the Southern Poverty Law Center’s official list of hate groups reveal that they all operate on the same type of convoluted reasoning of every anti-gay comment in this thread. The comprehensive list includes hate groups that hate each other, but that doesn’t matter. They all love really bad analogies. Confusion of the right to have opinions with a nonexistent right to not have them criticized, especially harshly. Allusions to the need to protect themselves from what amounts to having to acknowledge that the groups they hate exist. The narcissistic idea that the hated are miserable wretches with no other goal in existence but to subordinate them in multiple ways and steal their resources. The complete inability to put themselves in another’s shoes. All the crap that multiple people upthread already explained in detail.

    Also, for a group of people who are allegedly screaming for attention and obeisance from us straights, LGBTs sure are bad at employing the ultimate tactic of forming LGBT supremacist hate groups of their own. IIRC, you lot don’t even have one! Sheesh!

    Meanwhile:

    ” ‘Take this sentence:
    “I think black people are less intelligent than white people. That’s why you find them playing football and basketball rather than being scientists or doctors or lawyers.”
    ‘That statement above appears perfectly civil. The TONE is polite. But look at the words. Look at what it means. It’s racist as fuck’.”

    I think a famous example is Augustine St. Clare’s argument with his brother over slavery in Uncle Tom’s Cabin, a book people keep arguing contains absolutely no manifestations of racism against blacks whatsoever because it catalyzed the white abolitionist movement. St. Clare owns slaves but leans abolitionist, while his brother passionately believes in slaveownership. Both of their arguments contain the usual drivel about how blacks are natural simpletons. Both St. Clare and his brother harbor some degree of distaste for blacks. Moreover, what Stowe clearly intends as one of St. Clare’s best arguments against black slavery is his assertion that white will live to regret it when mixed race slaves, born with all their biological black disadvantages mixed into the talent and “haughty feelings” of Anglo blood in their veins, rise up and tear down their superior civilization in a rage (because, of course, the “full blacks” are too incompetent to do this themselves.)

    This exchange is conducted with the utmost civility ever. St. Clare and his brother are well-educated and well-bred Southern gentlemen. They speak in elegant language and modulated tones. They have this debate in a beautiful pastoral setting, over a game of croquet, whilst watching their well-bred children ride their horses, in the fucking Romantic Era. You really can’t get more “civil” than that.

  220. 270

    Feminace @250:

    Not only because the commentor was a shitty one off, but because you shouldn’t have to feel bad if circumstances keep you from getting out there.

    Oh definitely. Tony might, but he shouldn’t. I know I don’t feel bad. I wouldn’t be an activist anyway. She might as well have suggested I take up fishing. Ain’t gonna happen. Ever. (Unless it’s for crafting in certain video games, in which case you will have to pry that damn pole from my cold, pixelated hands.)

    Yet at no point will I under any circumstances cheer a white racist beating a gay black man. It’s just never going to happen. I am content with that.

  221. 271

    Yeah, ugh, the language of civility. I hate it so much. Use your damn brain. And stop trying to force people to talk nice when they don’t feel nice, that’s actually a mild form of emotional violence/abuse.

  222. 273

    The “event” that took place in a movie theater in Columbia, S.C. (which is located within walking distance of the First Baptist Church of Columbia, S.C.; is the exact sanctuary where the Slave owning members of the State Legislature ratified and signed the Articles of Secession, December 1860), reminds me of another “event” that took place in another Southern town of Money, Mississippi (August 1955).
    The “event” that took place in Mississippi over 59 years ago was also narrated by a Southern, middle aged, White women name Carolyn.
    This is how Carolyn told her story:
    “I was all alone in the small grocery store in Money, Mississippi. It was in the late evening and all of sudden a group of Black Boys started pouring in the store. As the Black Boys were moving about in the store, one of the boys (EMMETT TILL) started whistling. And then the other Black Boys in the group started laughing. I could not imagine what I was hearing from these Black Boys. I want you to imagine yourself alone White women in a dark store full of physically fit Black Boys whistling and laughing.
    It was terrifying
    It was horrifying
    It was depressing”
    After the Black Boys in Mississippi paid for their goods, they walked out of the store followed by Carolyn. Once outside, Carolyn told anyone that would listen that those Black Boys that just left her store had committed the ultimate American Crime against White Womanhood, and she was the victim of this crime.
    A mob was soon organized based on the UNVERIFIED testimony of this white, female victim. And this mob hunted down and crucified the voiceless Black Boy (EMMITT TILL) who dared to whistle and laugh in the presence of a White Woman.
    As you can very well see, these two stories have the same characters:

    Narrator and victim: White Women
    Voiceless and Crucified: Black Boy
    Mob: Gang of White Males (Mississippi); Gang of Whites, Blacks, Males, Females, Gay, Straight, et al (South Carolina)

    Moral of the story: The unverified testimony of a White Women has more value in the United States of American than the LIFE of a Black Boy!

    Educated Black Boy

  223. 274

    I had to stop reading the comments because there was so much vitriol being expressed from the anti-LGBT crowd but I found this blog post when I was citing the film in my own blogging about LGBT in media. I experienced something on a much smaller scale, where my theatre was full of people gasping in horror and a few shouting things like “ew” and how grossed out they were, but the end scene with Lionel kissing the antagonist was clearly viewed as a victory moment, although no one really reacted to it much but me. The result of this was that I felt, as an LGBT person in the theatre, that so many people there would find me repulsive and unwanted or react to me with straight up antagonism and hate. The experience made my stomach turn, but also left me frankly baffled.

    How many people in the theatre could that completely miss the POINT of Lionel’s queerness as a feature of the narrative? Lionel’s queerness is being used to challenge the audience, specifically. That is, I think, one of its main functions within the story. By seeing the movie you are being kind of assumed to already be supportive of his equal rights re: his blackness, but you are NOT guaranteed to be supportive of his equal rights re: his queerness. Since the filmmaker is black and gay I felt like this was a conscious decision on his part to challenge an audience that came expecting to not be challenged.

    I’m white and queer and I feel it’s my right to respond to homophobia in general; I don’t think it is my right to respond to the issue of homophobia specifically within the black community though. My understanding is the author is responding to the homophobia that she faced in person in general, because going off of the account I read in the comments of what she was feeling afterwards- like any queer person would have, that environment was made unsafe for her by virtue of the comments and threat perceived around her. I felt the same way, as I have felt any time before when people say homophobic, hateful things around me, and I feel outnumbered.

    To me the truly astonishing thing is that instead of the audience being reflective of the message in the movie, they missed that point entirely in the moment, and had no consideration for the people around them that they made feel unsafe. That would have happened regardless of whom the audience was, but since the issue was being caused in this instance by group of black individuals the irony is notable. It’s not the responsibility of a white person to frame this as an example of or bring up a discussion of homophobia within the black community- in general I think community issues are best handled by community members and representatives, especially with the history of the black community here taken into account- but it is within the purview of an LGBT individual to address the issue of homophobia absolutely; and I think it is completely unfair to ask an LGBT individual to not be affected by being exposed to hate and vitriol that invalidates their existence and makes them feel horrible, especially when the irony and the lack of comprehension of the film’s message is so blatantly obvious.

  224. 276

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